The Abductors

These Parental Abductors are Wanted by the FBI

They are not protective parents!

Pictures of children in the underground!

Read our new Blog on the Holly Ann Collins Case

List of recommended books including the Underground’s list

These parents are accused or convicted of kidnapping their children in violation of a court order into the notorious Children of the Underground or Protective Parent Group or cult. All of these custodial embattled parents are wanted by the local police or FBI. Some of these abducting parents could be in close contact with a domestic violence shelter for receipt of free services such as room and board. They could also be living in the United States, Europe or Latin America with the support of a church. Some church organization are known active supporters of the underground, but there has not yet been a prosecution of one of these groups. Please be aware that many of these parents are considered armed and dangerous. There could be substantial reward money for information leading to the recovery of the children or the arrest of the them. If you have any information on these abducting parents or the children, please contact your local law enforcement or FBI Office.


Cindy Jean Dumas, Abductor, Age 51 In Hiding Since 11-05-2004, San Diego, CA. See searching parent’s site for more info.



Claudia Librett,
Located in St. Catherines, Ontario Canada – Arrested
in Niagra Falls! Abductor, Age 51 In Hiding Since 01-10-2003, Narbeth,
PA .


David Hughes Abductor 02-Feb-1990, Dreyden,
NY — located, Fremont, Ohio


Stephanie Elizabeth Sims Abductor 04-Aug-1998,
Sacramento, CA - arrested in Scranton, PA-$250,000
bail.

Elizabeth Ann Stratton
Elizabeth Ann Stratton Abductor 19-dec-1997,
Antioch, CA

Bonnie Rubenstein
Bonnie Rubenstein Abductor 31-jul-97, Waterford,
CT - child returned to custodial parent.

Ellen Dever
Ellen Dever Abductor 8-jun-97, Pittsburgh,
PA — Recovery location: Switzerland – plead guilty

Mary Lou Spradin

Mary Lou Spradin Abductor 07-Jan-99, Maui,
HI-Convicted – by Jury Trial in Hawaii


Eugia Edwards Morse Abductor 13-Dec-96,
La Mesa, CA

Marisa Ann Kirsh
Marisa Ann Kirsh Abductor 01-Jun-96, York,
SC;
Located: South Africa, on trial
for smuggling nuclear devices.

Dorothy Lee Barnett

new Dorothy Lee Barnett Abductor 24-apr-94,
Isle of Palms, SC Reward $5,000 – Arrested – November 2013 – Australia

Holly Ann Collins
Holly Ann Collins Abductor 30-Jun-94, Hennepin
County, MN –
Located: The Netherlands – Arrested – Plead Guilty

Merle Vanderheiden

Merle Marie Vanderheiden Abductor 22-Jun-90,
Honolulu, HI

Sharon Wimperis

Sharon Elaine Wimperis Abductor 14-Jun-90,
Finksburg, MD – Arrested in Ann Arbor, MI

Marvin Maple

Marvin L. Maple Abductor, 01-Mar-89, Murfreesboro,
TN – Arrested in San Jose, CA in 2/09.

Sandra Maple
Sandra K. Maple Abductor 01-Mar-89, Murfreesboro,
TN – Deceased – Her husband was arrested in San Jose, CA in 2/09.

Annette Chana Rosenberg
Annette Chana Rosenberg Abductor 21-Oct-90,
New City, NY

Victoria Karp Lowe
Victoria Mildred Karp Lowe Abductor 13-Aug-88,
Roswell, GA

Raul Lopez
Raul Carlo Lopez Sr. Abductor 12-Aug-89,
Miami, FL – Located in California.

Irene Lopez
Irene Lopez Abductor 12-Aug-89, Miami,
FL – Located in California

Ellen Yates
Elaine C. Yates Abductor 26-Aug-85, Warwick,
RI – Located in New Zealand

78 Responses to The Abductors

  1. carey says:

    Marvin Maples has been arrested… and the missing Baskin children have been found alive & well and living under different names. Jennifer & Jonathan Bunting is now the kids names.

  2. G.rama says:

    I see alot about the “abductors” on here, but has anyone looked into who they are running from? I’m sure that some of these cases bear further understanding before all are painted with the same brush…

    • vbm says:

      My thoughts exactly…I know it is hard the the family that gets in between this and does not see thier family, but it isn’t funny when you have to leave to protect your child. I know because I did. Our case has never been resolved. My son is now 30 yrs. old.

    • Ann says:

      I agree with you. Too many times, it is the father who has all the money and the wives and children who have to deal with his economic, physical, and psychological abuse for years. Most of the fathers should be up here instead of the mothers who just want a decent life without the constant fear and abuse.

      • dee says:

        Dee in response to Ann and the editor. I agree and am living it. The editor replies and states co parenting is the thing to do regardless of abuse which clearly is not thinking of the childs BEST interest, ONLY the selfish interest of claiming to protect the alleged or presumed fathers rights. The U.S. Supreme court has made decisions in LEHR which clearly states that a parant (whether male or female) abandons their child, or does not visit or communicate, does not pay for support of their child HAS LOST ANY RIGHT to claim ANY right to state what is best for the child. This is also upheld in almost ALL state Supreme courts citing LEHR and other cases.
        Father DO have the advantage economically as most scenarios the women is asking the court to have attorney fees paid so they can be represented as the ABUSER generally CONTROLS in all aspects, mentally, emotionally, and financially and this is PROVEN in statistics and in ALL research on abusers.”There are so many resources available to custodial embattled mothers that might wrongfully think that co-parenting / joint custody is an insult to a mother’s patenting skills,” is completely false. ABUSERS which are generally the father by 85% do this regularly and it is now found that “litigation abuse” is now part of domestic violence and abuse as the fathers use the fact THEY have the money and file court cases and false reports to cause more harm. CLEARLY the states have agreed this is happening incorporating “litigation abuse” into DV laws. Regardless of the editor stating he has followed this for years, he must be up to date with what the COURTS are deciding in these matters.

        The editor is ABSOLUTELY WRONG that “there are so many resources available to custodial embattled mother’s that might wrongfully think that co-parenting/joint custody is an insult to a mother’s parenting skills.” First a mother trying to PROTECT their child is not “wrongfully think” as the editor states simply because it does not grant co-parenting. Second THERE ARE NOT many resources available as they DO NOT represent you legally without being paid as this is ALSO not a simple case that legal aid will take as they only do BASIC legal issues and this does NOT fall into their catagory to help. No one gets an appointment of a lawyer in family law either so that leaves the Mother WITHOUT representation. Money rules, you need to PAY for an attorney, they do NOT take a case to be paid later, they need a retainer which Mothers generally DO NOT have.

        I am a prime example as I have been in court battles for 2 YEARS with NO money and NO resourses forced to represent myself as the father who has NOT paid any support making 100K a year AS A renegade COP to boot, has filed several cases in several states which is ILLEGAL but he does anyway to collect VOID orders I as the Mother have to then litigate with no money which then is also harder to do when having no service or notice of these cases have to vacate orders.

        I have custody from a first filed case, an ACTIVE DVRO which he has violently harmed the children physically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually with police and child services and emergency therapy started, as well as I am disabled from his actions; and after NO contact for 2 years and NO support he VIOLENTLY kidnaps the children from a Bible Camp when I was NOT there. I have NOT seen my children as his mentally unbalanced girlfriend is hiding the children as she cannot have her own children. My husband kidnapped the children to NOT pay support, and give to his mentally unbalanced girlfriend since she cannot have children. HE is happy with sex from this girlfriend and pay NO support, as this is how he thinks HE is best served by harming my innocent children by his abuse and kidnapping. Meantime my children are being abused and parentally alienated as this SICK women who also has a RO on her now preventing contact with my children she is violating and police will not enforce as a girlfriend of a cop, is telling my children she is their “new Mommy,” and they will NEVER see their “other Mom” again; and even told police they are “her” children and “she” has custody, as NO court has given her custody.
        This is ALL illegal, and there is NO resources available to me other than PAYING an attorney I cannot do being disabled from husband as well as he cancelled the health insurance on Mother and children AGAINST court orders to keep me disabled preventing surgery perpetuating poverty and disability. I have been posting on this site for over a year and can see it continues to escalate and the children are about to be internationally abducted as well as he is NOT a US citizen. He hides additionally in CO behind his cop friends who will NOT arrest him and his girlfriend who are violating the DVRO on BOTH of them, as well as custody orders, as well as HAVE WARRANT and ORDERS to arrest husband for parental kidnapping and child endangerment., COURT ORDER VIOLATION of DVRO; and abduction orders to bust down the door and return the children to MOTHER; which the local law enforcement WILL NOT enforce violating the full faith and credit Act and Extradiction Act.

        The FBI in CO cannot get involved as CO is a “home jurisdiction” state which means ONLY the local law can arrest UNLESS they ask FBI assistance or get a court order. I have a CA order for FBI to help but that needs to be a federal order apparently as well. The cops are corrupt and in CO you complain to the department and THEY do an internal investigation, which being corrupt they REFUSED to take any complaints and IN FACT falsly arrested me for “stalking” for simply asking to enforce the WARRANT and orders as they said in front of witnesses that they were arresting me because HUSBAND COP told them to so he could get an opposing DVRO to place the children on the DVRO so Mother could NOT pick up the kidnapped children. 5 MONTHS LATER luckily having a public defender as was a felony charge, the charges were proven false and the charges all DISMISSED with a COURT oRDER stating falsely arrested, and the DVRO was dismissed.This manipulation of the cop system and judicial system kept me from my children legally for 5 months which perpetuated the parental alienation and abuse my children had pleaded with police to help save them ALL ignored.

        Now I have MORE CA orders to get children and have two appeal cases in two states to get rid of the VOID orders made with no notice or service and NOT the first filed case which is the ONLY case with jurisdiction to make ANY orders regarding the children. I AM FILING PRO SE as there are NO resourses this editor claims exists. I have a federal court case against the corrupt cops NOT enforcing the MANDATORY state and federal statutes stating they MUST arrest him and girlfriend violating the DVRO, and did the FEDERAL court case myself as well. I am waiting on a federal order to get the FBI to get my children, BUT I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY and if I did not do the complaint in the proper legal technical form I WILL NOT even get an order as it will NOT get accepted EVEN THOUGH ALL OF THIS IS AGAINST THE LAWS and it is “a matter of law” to get my children and the police to enforce the warrant and orders.

        SO>>>> I can clearly speak from experience there is NO resources let alone “many resources” available. If there ARE resources available I challenge the editor to LIST these resources that can help me in this situation he claims there are “many” resources which should be at his fingertips. My guess is the editor will simple make comments co-parenting is the answer regardless if the court and the law states husband is LEGALLY not allowed to be with children, and defend the ABUSER simply because he is a MALE. The care of the children should be with a SAFE environment, regardless if the Mother or Father, but it is clear this editor is simply interested in the alleged protection of the MALE, as statistically the male is the abuser, and statistically the male is not the primary parent in custody.
        It is true in the past 5 years co-parenting has been the new norm; but co-parenting NOW has changed as MOST states have changed their laws in the past 2 years incorporating the co-parenting BUT stating you MUST overcome the domestic violence before granting ANY share of custody as ALL states are incorporating child abuse and domestic violence as PRESUMED NOT to be in the best interest of the children. It is a good forum on this cite, but unfortunetly the editor has no other help or opinion other than MALES are the victims and anyone who does not co-parent has something wrong with them. MY children are being parentally abducted which is the claim this editor disapproves of; but it is an abduction by a MALE who has PROVEN by the courts to be an abuser. This is HORRIBLE, I have no resources to help as this editor falsely claims exists even stating there are “many.” My innocent children are irreparably harmed and I have done EVERYTHING legally posible to prevent this.

        This IS abuse of 2 years now the law says we are protected from, so even having DVRO and orders LEGALLY does not stop the abuse, and abusers are not always even arrested for violations as can be seen in my case as well. Male cops in general favor the male and have been statistically arresting the women victim claiming they are doing in their “discretion” also making it so women will not call for help so they don’t get falsely arrested.So ANN is correct “Too many times the father has all the money and the wives and children who have to deal with his economic, physical, and psychological abuse for years. Most of the fathers should be up here instead of the mothers who just want a decent life without the constant…..”

        I NEED HELP. Please if anyone does know of resources PLEASE let me know. I CAN pay someone to arrest him as in CO the statutes allow ANYONE to arrest someone commiting a crime. There are groups that reabduct the children back at about $10,000 as well. I am trying hard to have the legal system work for me, but it is failing as I have no resources or money to resolve with an attorney. I DO NOT want to reabduct my children and have more trauma, but is it wise to have them parentally alienated with a mentally unbalanced girlfriend who is a stranger and a husband that beats the children to conform to this? They are about to be internationally abducted to live in a HORRIBLE life of abuse and permanent parental alienation. I don’t even have anyone who would simple arrest them as a civil arrest for their crimes, as I do not know anyone, nor have money to pay someone.

        So editor and people out there, what is a Mother to do to protect their children when the legal sytem is failing and the father has the money, and abuses the courts and police system to further PERPETUATE domestic harm and abuse to Mother and children? This is NOT a joke, this is NOT made up, this is serious lifelong trauma to my children, and there is NO resources to fix that I know of without money and a good attorney. I will fight the fight the best I can by myself as I am very smart and determined to protect my children, but that doesn’t mean ANYTHING if I submit court documents wrong. AFTER I get my children and FNALLY get him arrested and he has to face his crimes, which might just be dismissed as a local police officer, and even if convicted will RETALIATE against me and the children and we will be living our lives in fear of being beaten or killed as if I am killed, he will claim the children.

        DO NOT state this is exagerated as he has already abused the police system to find us when PROTECTED by a DVRO not to find us or stalk us which was not only violated was ASSISSTED by his friend cops using the system illegally. He kidnapped the children and the police are now aiding and abetting to keep false imprisonment of the children. He has falsely arrested me to try to make me a felon and keep my in jail with no release which was PROVEN to be a false report and false charge. He will kill me and or the children after I get the children as well. I do NOT want to live underground as my children should be able to be who they are and be safe, but I doubt our lives will be able to be that way. So what are my alternatives other than living in fear every moment of our lives whether he is in jail or not.

        Please if anyone has help or answers please share. But it is more than clear by the statistics, and the courts, that co-parenting IS NOT the answer to ALL situations, and statistically it is the MALE being the abuser, and the MALE having the legal upper hand controling the money and threatening to take the children to cause intentional abuse to Mother. The editor could really do a great service if instead of claiming there are many resources, he could back up ALL his comments with the actual resources. Talk is cheap and is simply his unsubstantiated statments are simply his unsupported opinions which are NOT helpful. This forum should be helpful, not just arguementative.

        Can anyone help me and my children?

  3. Alyssa says:

    Run mommies run!!! Children deserve to be with their mommies and I hope you NEVER EVER find them! I hope these children are waking up happy every morning in the arms of the moms who gave them life! We need more Faye Yagers out there.

    RUN MOMMY RUN! HIDE CHILDREN HIDE!

    • Celeste says:

      I’m sorry but Faye Yeager is an enabler. She enables mothers to run off with their children.
      How could she and April Meyer not have known where Amanda Otter was?
      She enabled a mentally ill woman, who was physically abusive towards the child’s father, to run off with her baby daughter during a supposedly “supervised” visit.
      Being in the underground is not the way for a child to live.
      These are not “protective parents.” They’re kidnappers.

      • forthelost says:

        That’s Savannah Todd you’re talking about, right? She’s never been seen since. I will not go into the disturbing implications of that.

        And does Jessica Vargas Biatriz belong with her mom? After all, Mom only broke into the home by force and wounded Dad and killed her uncle. But I’m sure she did it for all the right reasons.

      • vbm says:

        I know that Faye does not get involved with someone unless she has proof that something terrible is happening or has happened. I know because she helped me. I am grateful for what she did. Is she perferct certainly not, but she dang sure knows what’s happened to a lot of children in this world; more than our stupid judicial system knows about.

      • underwatch says:

        VBM,

        Have you ever seen the videos where Faye Yager browbeat or asked leading questions to these children until she got a false disclosure? Why was she interviewing these children without any professional credentials or training?

        Can you tell us what Faye Yager promised you if you went underground? Can you tell us what you were promised if you got caught?

        The Editor

      • H says:

        underwatch – your head is so far in the sand its crazy. I watched a perfectly good man go through hell with his children. Mother would lock them outside while her boyfriend was there – they were 3 and 6 years old. The man finally got custody of the kids – he was a great father and deserved custody. Then someone got the whacked idea when the boy, by this time 5, was waiting for the school bus and suddenly had to go to the bathroom, that the boy had to be abused because he ran behind a bush to pee, rather than run home to use the bathroom and would have obviously missed the bus. So social services, your “experts” were brought in. They tried their hardest, luckily to no avail, to paint a picture that this man was unfit to raise his children. One of the most despicable things they did was to put the 8 yo girl in a room which contained many anatomically correct dolls, with a two way mirror, and observed her. After about 15 minutes, when she had done nothing but sit in the chair, they went into the room and asked her to play with the dolls, then left again. Another 10 minutes later, they went in and asked why she wasn’t playing with the dolls yet. Her response was “they don’t have any clothes, what am I supposed to do?” Funny how an 8 yo is more intelligent than all your ‘experts’. Finally, disgusted that this was not going the direction they wanted, they directed the girl to act like doll A was Daddy, and doll B was her, and asked her to show them what A did to B. She still did nothing. They finally gave up with their brainwashing and putting ideas into the child’s head, and instead placed the father on ‘watch’ for a year, showing up at all hours of the day and night for unannounced visits, etc. He got through it, the kids got through it – but while you cry fowl and any and every questioning of a child by someone YOU don’t approve of simply because their conclusions wasn’t what YOU wanted (can we say control freak?), remember that those “experts” you believe in so much can be just as wrong and misguided, and they do all those manipulations you try so desperately to point out. The more I read of this web site, the more I come to the conclusion that you were an abuser, and your spouse ran off with your children to protect them. Let it go, man, just let it go.

    • I would enable too if I could and nobody,s children would be taken by the courts again

      • G.rama says:

        The courts have egregiously denied children the basic building blocks of normal development and favored a movement of angry fathers. Children are denied safety and security when they are forced to live a reality that is the delusion of a family court. A child should not be “forced” to live the two very separate lives these fathers demand. Sometimes… real love is “letting go” – at least for awhile. That’s not to say all Dad’s are “bad” or that all Mom’s are “good”.. But usually a mother “runs” to protect her kids.

      • underwatch says:

        It sounds like you don’t believe in equal rights and want the family courts to go back to maternal custody of the ’50s and ’60s. Instead the courts have moved towards joint custody or co-parenting. In addition the courts have moved from domestic violence to family violence.

        Do you personally believe joint custody is an insult to a mother in all cases? Do you believe after a mother is arrested for family violence, the child should be protected from the abusers?

      • dee says:

        I have 2 abducted children and have been looking on the internet for all kinds of help. I came across this posting and think everyone is missing the point here. Kidnapping is kidnapping. There may be valid reasons for it, but it is kidnapping all the same. I wonder if I should kidnap my children back. But the harm done from father kidnapping them is permanent damage. He has a domestic violence restraining order protecting us from the children; but law enforcment does not care, I’ll explain my story after this point. As an actual caring mother, kidnapping them back causes harm as well, but I can’t have the law do their REQUIRED job; and have to STILL think of my children’s well being and permanent damage from all this.
        Co- parenting is a great idea in theory; but I have watched it destroy many children as usually one of the parents cares nothing for the children but wants to hurt the other party. There is no co parenting, just sabotaging.I see to different families I know and one never has the other parent involved and the children are well adjusted. The other family the children are a mess and there lives ruined and constant stress since never any agreement on the children.I listen in court as I hear the father pays barely any support, wants to lower it;blames the mother for the poor school grades; then says he works hard at the at the Sherriffs Office and would like to have the children. This judge says sure! The Mother speaks up and says Whoa; explains that he does not pay support, she asked him to help get a tutor for the children; the children have been molested by him with reports;he has no room at his house as the children sleep on the couch on the court ordered visits;he doesn’t have time for the children now how will he have time for them taking them when she is home all the time for the children.He just wants to lower support. The judge says well he is a police officer that should be a good home. She corrected her and said he works at a front desk and is not a police officer, and what does that have to do with it? Judge said lets give it a try.
        That is how flip a judge is. Let’s give it a try? This mother started crying and begging you can’t harm my children and have them be abused. Why would you do this. I have done nothing wrong? The judge said then lets get a report from a counselor but it will cost $1500. The father said that he can’t pay since he wants to lower the child support.The mother says she would pay half having no money. The judge took a break. I talked to this women and said go get the order from the juvinile court since he never did his counseling, this judge gives to police officers. The clerk came out to listen as they know I will be telling her who to talk to about these crazy orders from a NEW judge to the bench who does not even know family law. The clerk went back and was telling the judge, and she then decided to keep things as they were. The Mother did not want to get an order from the juvinile court because then the father would loose his job, then no support. At this point I told her it comes down to you having your children or no support.
        So please stop fighting about fathers or mothers. Mothers generally fight for the safety of their children, and the fathers fight for the safety of their wallet. Not all, but most do. Mothers are also left usually penniless and with no attorney and the father refuses to pay the bills or support, does shady moves with attorneys and even files second cases for custody in other states against the UCCJEA and PKPA and when the mother contests it Pro Se they don’t take her seriously even when the laws are clear there can’t be a second case.
        Many times there is domestic violence and the abuser then tries to turn the tables and claim the victim is the abuser or is reported to child services for general neglect and then they say the mother is or was investigated by child services so give them custody. So many times this is so CLEARLY seen and is the usual pattern of abusers;but judges just overlooka it.Then they tell you to give your child to the abuser who says he can’t watch the children so will leave overnight with a sex pervert while he works. The judge will say, I don’t think he would do that. You don’t just mention that is his plan out of the blue; we are talking about the court is supposed to do the best interest of the children right? Wrong.
        The best interest of the children is not the discussion these days. It is their presumption co parenting is the way to go and tries to do that. Or you have one shady parent use their lawyer and money to find the other parent unfit with no evidence, usually with no hearing they are aware of, and get ridicoulous orders saying the other parent needs to have counseling and $10,000 bond to see their own child they have raised for years all by themselves with no support; so why is this other parent now taking the kids?
        This is the real crap out there. Most co parenting does not work. That is why it truely is best for ONE parent to be the one to make decisions for the children at least legally; physical custody they try for co parenting mostly. But it is so excessive to do co parenting when one parent is a clear abuser and they somehow think it is more important to co parent than the safety of the children. that is the hot new plan for the courts to co parent with everyone. This is just dangerous; and the judges in family court usually are transient judges who get in to being a judge in family law first then move on. Most have NO IDEA of the MANDATORY COMMANDS of the UCCJEA, PKPA, VAWA, and the crime victims act of 2004 which states a victim of violent crime is to be reasonably protected.
        So it would be great if we focus on the best interest of the children, not if a mother or father, or co parenting. If you take a child from the primary caregiver and claim your void second in time case from another state gives you custody and that somehow makes you physically taking the children not kidnapping; that is not correct as that person knows that second in time case is illegal.But they waive around the court order and kidnap the kids to that state and hide behind the void orders and then claim stalking, domestic violence or anything on the other parent coming to get their kidanpped children with the first filed custody orders. The judge made the second custody orders KNOWING it is against the UCCJEA and PKPA but the judges don’t care as they think they are immune and you have to sue them. Meantime the innocent children are harmed and their life is now destroyed, trust issues, loose the ability to bond with their parent and future relationships etc.
        So please stop with the it can be resolved in the court speech. There are about 380,000 parental kidnappings a year and many are from judges making dueling custody orders or violating the VAWA and parents are protecting their children. RARELY does a judge actually care of the evidence unless it is presented by a lawyer, and then they don’t even usually LOOK at the file; they just wait to listen to the arguement in court. Many women are not hiding, are not running, have no support, and then all of a sudden the abuser is somehow granted custody.Do you let the children go for one night when you know the child will be raped and never the same because some lawyer got a judge to give them an order? Many go Ex parte saying it is an emergency, don’t give notice; and the victim has to then try to fight it, and how? Sometimes the choice may be to run. But there are many bad people that take the kids and then the left behind parent who was the only primary care giver never sees the children again for absolutely no reason.
        I see perfectly caring fathers, that the mother ran off with the children. I see mostly angry fathers not wanting to support their ex and taking the children is a way to do so. They fight about everything and try to lower the support and accuse them of everything so once again to not pay support. This is the statistical norm as most men think that it is “their” money and why should they have to pay for the children. It would be nice if each parent would simply care about the children. but even caring about the children does not mean co parenting. Unfortunetly people are more concerned about their own selfish wants than the childrens needs. Statistically speaking this is mostly the fathers. fathers also manipulate the courts better, and usually afford a lawyer and make sure the mother cannot.
        I am also not understanding why in these post the lady who called her ex to come get the children in a war torn country was somehow bad. It shows real care for your children when you put the childrens needs before your wants. Seems like this Mother felt it was unsafe in a war zone, and while the father might be horrible, it can’t be as bad as your children being shot at and killed in a day.She can fight the battle with the father again as her children will be alive. That does not mean the father is safe, just better than her children being instantly killed.
        I have a kidnapping with the legal system enabling the kidnapper; and I am in appeal courts for second void cases; and corrupt police officers that work with my husband a police officer who has a domestic violence restraining order protecting the children from him. I have about 5 court orders in the first state to get them back. But he kidnapped them to hide in the town he works in as a police officer and they will not arrest him even WITH court orders from 1st state and DVRO. Yes, they can’t do that, but they do.He is in Colorado and COlorado has a home state jurisdiction so local law enforcment are the ONLY ones who arrest unless they ask the FBI or other law enforcment to help. If they don’t do their job, you get to complain to the same law dept that wont arrest him. No surprise they will not take the report either. So what do you do? Leave them to be beaten, kidnap them back and go underground as the law will not help you as he will do it again? Oh, and yea one more thing; going to the Sherriff with my parental kidanpping orders, violation of DVRO, child endangerment, and orders for the DA in ANY state to break down the door pursuant to UCAPA, along with the DVRO showing children were to be protected ARE ALL ORDERS to be given full faith and credit by our constitution for enforcement; were not only not enforced; but they arrested me so my cop husband could claim I am stalking him to get a DVRO on me so the children can be added so I cannnot pick up my kidnaped children! Yes, I know they can’t do that, I hear it all the time. Just like people saying the court and law enforcment are the answer on this blog. So I have kidnapped children and orders, but the law enforcment wont uphold them and they manipulate the law to arrest me and have a felony of stalking to fight and my children are being beaten and also with his girlfriend claiming they are “her” children since she can’t have children.
        So what would you do in this situation? FBI cant help unless asked. I can’t get a warrant for his arrest thought the NCIC has missing children, parental kidnapping, and DVRO on husband and another on girlfriend protecting the children no one will enforce with corrupt police and judges. I can’t be near them or I am breaking the law with the new DVRO for showing my court orders for kidnapping. Do I have stangers abduct my children back? Colorado allows citizens arrest for any crime witnessed not even need to be a felony so could someone go arrest them for their crimes and take them to another cop station? If I get them back to I go underground so they are not kidnapped again? Don’t say the courts are the answer as have an appeal in but the corrupt judge in Colorado is not including my CA custody orders and DVRO in his file to the appellant court and I don’t have $25,000 to pay for an attorney to argue to get the file updated and preach the deception of this judge. So really there is a place in this world for people helping harmed people protect their children. It may not always be right, but I see the need. It is a good idea to call law enforcment and file in the courts. But it is not lways the right outcome for so many reasons, and the courts are not always right. The problem is the courts are not educated on the domestic abuse and manipulation of the courts, laws, and really looking out for the underdog. That should be the focus of bringing this problem to the forefront of the press and courts to make a real difference so people don’t have to think about kidnapping their children, going underground, and the law and courts make better judgments.If the two opposing sides on these blogs would channel that energy into telling the world there is a REAL problem that needs fixing, maybe things would chnge. Let me know any helpful ideas for my situation. I know where the children are, have orders, on NCIC, though no warrants on NCIC, corrupt cops won’t arrest their fellow officer.

    • jane says:

      I agree!!!!

  4. Gunner Retired says:

    I just have one question for all these women who are so totally supportive of this CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR: at what age do boys stop being boys… and become men who are of course only to be hated?

    Is it:
    13, when social services ‘Shelters’, run by DV zealots (and funded by the federal gov’t) stop allowing boys in?
    16, when they’re legally old enough to drive a car?
    17, when they’re legally old enough to join the military and go catch a bullet for God and Country?
    21, when they’re old enough to legally drink a beer?

    Or at whatever age it’s no longer ideologically acceptable to call them boys any more?

    Think about it, these “sons” will become men one day, ergo inversely the men you hate are also a womans son.

    Have you ever asked our mothers how they feel about your hatred of us?

    I hope you are cozily perched upon your throne of hatred for men, because I for one haven’t seen my daughter in years, through > NO FAULT OF MY OWN < (I mean aside from having the misfortune of being born with the wrong chromosome).
    I also hope you never inflict yourself upon a man, much give birth to any sons.

    The world has enough problems without your hatred.

    Gunner Retired

    • H says:

      I left for two reasons – so my daughter would not have the false idea beaten into her head that a man could treat her with as much abuse as possible and she was just supposed to ‘take it’; and so that my son would not have the false idea beaten into his head that a man could treat a woman with as much abuse as possible and it was acceptable, with no consequences – so, yeah, the thought certainly crossed MY mind that the man I learned to hate was someone’s son. Perhaps if she had pulled HER big girl panties on and gotten out, her son would not have turned out as he had.

    • Grambo says:

      Gunner, it is disturbing that you automatically categorize protective mother’s as “man haters”. You are one of the problems as you appear eager to paint your picture with an overly large brush. Where is your concern for children? Do you call protective fathers “women haters”? My friend you are a large part of the problem. Children are NOT posessions, they are people.

    • Annie Madmom says:

      Gunner Retired, should I post all of the hatred you have for women that is plastered all over the internet? Thought so. So go crawl back in your hole and think about the abuse you inflicted upon your ex and child and maybe work on making yourself a better person, ie: NOT a wife beater, child abuser. You were banned by the courts from your child, not by the mother running and hiding. Get over yourself.

  5. Mike says:

    Ms. Rubenstein has ofcourse been caught, and is working in the area of human services. RECOVERY RESOURCES LLC in Norwich, CT is her employer, one of the worst human service agencies in the state. She is a ‘project manager’ and works with people whom can not fend for themselves. The very sad thing is this..she is STILL a pathological liar, and is emotionally abusive to the people she is in charge of. The owner of the company tells people that he is ‘teflon’ and no abuse report sent to the State of Connecticut will ever come to surface because his mother allegedly is pretty high up with the state…the agency needs to be investigated along with Rubenstein…BECAUSE of Rubenstein…after all, because of the CT. court system, she has never been held accountable for falsely alleging child sexual abuse..the pathological liar in her has never been treated…her…’therapist’ (Bob Wade) makes a lot of money off of her…many of her clients also go to him, because of a referal from her……funny how that is. Yes, this woman makes those of us in the area of human services sick…she is NOT respected, but appears to be teflon. Sick..sick woman she is. People…STAY AWAY from her and the agency she works for…all are very sick people.

  6. Jack_B_niimble says:

    I knew Faye Yeager before she moved away from Marietta. She was a horrible, greedy person. I am surprised that the media never dug into her story better than they did. She did not verify any stories of abuse, she would charge a pretty high fee to send people underground, sometimes taking furniture, cars jewelry in trade. Having them max out their credit cards and run.

    She hurt a lot more people than she helped.

    Like many people, she was in it for the ego trip and the money.

  7. joani says:

    I honestly don’t know my thoughts on this. What’s to be done when the court system doesn’t work? Would you so willingly hand your child over to your ex, knowing that your ex is going to abuse your child? Wouldn’t you do whatever you had to to keep your child safe? Then again, I’m sure some parents go underground for frivolous and selfish reasons. So what do you do? I’m very confused about this.

    • forthelost says:

      I haven’t seen any evidence the court system truly does not work yet.

      • Sherry R says:

        What about Faye Yager’s case, where her child was given to the notorious child molester for years by the court, while she was deemed insane for alleging it?

      • underwatch says:

        Sherry,

        Faye’s case ocurred many, many years ago when Georgia’s Child Protective Services were either in their early stages or was non-existent. For her or any other protective parent cause supporters to try and convince custodial embattled moms of the year 2010 that going underground with your child is a reasonable legal alternative is outright insane! Furthermore, her claims of finding satanic ritual abuse in many of her cases does not add to her credibility.

        The Editor

      • Lynn says:

        I was a stay-at-home mom who lost custody of her precious 5 yr.old. I testified that my ex spanked my son when he was only 9 mths old. I stated that I had concerns that he could not feed him properly. His dad raised him for six years. He starved him, beat him, and tied a rope around his neck and tied it to his bed; so that he could experience what the dog felt being chained to the doghouse all day. He denied me three solid years of visitation and then gave me custody back! He hasn’t even tried to see my son for five years…or pay support. The courts lie, withold evidence, change tapes, to do what they want. It’s never what’s in the child’s best interest. B4 u judge someone remember my Jake who weiged less at age 12, than his kindergartner brother. He was skin and bones when he got to come back home.

      • statingtheobvious says:

        The Editor seems to have some facts misconstrued.
        http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/dv.html

      • dee says:

        Your not looking very hard. See my other post for my story. The court system has real issues with family law, restraining orders, and interstate and international child custody issues; even police do not always do the required and mandatory things and judges claim they are using their “discretion” when actually there are mandatory commands of statutes with no room or allowed legal ability for their unwanted “discretion.” The better lawyer wins, and if you have no money and are pro se; no matter how smart you are you are going to be looked down upon.Judges make void orders withoutjurisdiction to do so all the time based on lawyer requests, friends requests, and the other perty is unjustly harmed. That is not justice, and there is so many void orders overturned in the system and so many more that simply are not. i would not state that there is not any evidence the court system is not working; the evidence is overwhelming and the appellant court and supreme court just can’t keep up and most are void orders and clear violations of statutes and constitutional rights. There is a difference between finding and seeing the evidence the court system is not working; and simply believing that it does work.

      • Grambo says:

        The court system has made microscopic progress and the fact that they rely on CPS to make most of their decisions is a problem. If “forthelost” fails to find fault with the family court system they haven’t done enough research.

  8. Joani says:

    So why are there so many people in the underground. Are they all man-haters? I’ve even seen movies about a judge who is going to award custody to an abusive parent and the other parent (to protect the child) takes off and hides. I couldn’t blame that parent at all. On the other hand, some mentally ill non-custodial parent could do the same and there’s no one to stop them or help you find the kid. So is the thought here that all the cases are unjustified and that Yaeger woman has some kind of hidden agenda?
    Thanks for the insight.

    • forthelost says:

      Fiction is not fact. Movies show invasions by aliens from outer space too, but that doesn’t mean it’s happening in real life

      And how many people are in the underground? It’s probably not a great deal. But in one year alone three hundred thousand children will be abducted by a parent.

    • P. K. says:

      I have worked on many of the Faye Yeager cases of parental abductns, I know Yeager and i have talked with her on many occasions Faye Yeager has one agenda. IT IS THE MONEY ISSUE. Yeager started in Mississippi, and then on to Atlanta. Yeager is a cunning and smart individual and many of the families she put in the underground will never be recovered. Ellen Dever was recoved because the husband in the case had many resources and he was able to hire the best in the business and Ellen was recovered. YEAGER HAS ONE AGENDA MONEY!!!!!

      • vbm says:

        I do not believe that!….I lived with her for a short time –never gave her a damn dime…..She’s never sent me a bill. It’s been a long time…We left when my son was about 6. He is now 30 yrs. old….Shame on you for thinking this about Faye. And I know for a fact that she does not do anything with children if she isn’t sure something is happeing with the child and the courts are not doing anything —which is what they did in our case—–nothing…..

      • underwatch says:

        VBM,

        She didn’t have any professional credentials, she should never had been interviewing children. If she had so many connections with the FBI, why wouldn’t she find a child therapist to interview the children. When you and your son were underground, did your son get the therapy he needed?

        The Editor

    • dee says:

      I think the question should not be asked if they got their children therapy when underground; it should be whether you are underground or not, HOW are you to afford the therapy you so desperately want to give your childen. Anyone know free therapy these days?

      • underwatch says:

        Dee,

        I never could understand why the Protective Parent and Domestic Violence Groups don’t raise money for children’s therapy. They would rather spend money on other protective parent causes.

        - The Editor

      • dee says:

        Dee replying to editor. It matters not what causes the protected parent group does. What should matter is the therapy for children. Does your group have a fund that I can ask for help for my abducted children to get therapy? This really is not a blame game. Children need therapy, it is not free; and whether you are returning from abduction or underground let’s find some free therapy for the children. SO instead of passing blame, do you know any free therapy for the children?

  9. joani says:

    So where are these 300,000 kids who are abducted by a parent if not the underground? Is that something different? And some of the movies I’m referring to are supposedly based on true stories.

  10. Isreal Hoisl says:

    This is a terrific blog posting, im happy I uncovered this. Ill be back in the future to check out other posts that you have on your blog.

  11. Meghan Flanagan says:

    I am planning to major in journalism and I am writing a research paper on Faye Yager. I have found lots of information but I was really hoping to get primary source interviews. Does anyone know of an email address or any means of contacting Faye Yager? I would also like to interview someone credible who is opposed to Yager and her underground network. Would anyone be willing to complete a short interview through email or have an email address where I could contact Faye? I would greatly appreciate it!!

  12. Marlene says:

    Greetings, My name is Marlene Faith Graham. I have been a resident of Texas since January of 2009. I am in a court case here in Texas and I am in dire need of assistance. My husband fled Texas with our two small children in July of 2009 and went to Utah . After learning of his plan to not return with the children, I filed for divorce here in Williamson County . Judge Michael Jergins is presiding over my case here in Texas . In November, Judge Jergins issued a 60-day temporary order for my husband to return the kids within 10 days, pay my attorney fees and also pay a bond to the court preventing him from fleeing Texas with the kids, again. My husband disobeyed the order in Texas because he was erroneously issued an order in Utah giving him temporary custody of the kids. At the time these orders were issued, TEXAS had proper jurisdiction of the matter not Utah . Since then order in Texas has expired and the order in Utah has been set aside by Judge Rand Beacham. Judge Jergins here in Texas is questioning where proper jurisdiction is and wants to confer with Judge Beacham in Utah to decide. Since moving here to Texas I have maintained employment and a household for myself and my family up until they left. I have still maintained employment and have taken care of my financial responsibilities. My husband worked for three (3) weeks here in Texas and did not work again (and still has not) since then. He has defaulted on all of his financial responsibilities and his mother is supporting him. I have not seen my children in 8 months. I went to Utah to see my kids and they were taken out of state (without my knowledge or consent) to California by my husbands mother. Even when they were within 1 1/2 hr away from me my husband and his mother refused to let me see them. I don’t have a lot of money to fly back and forth to visit my kids, especially when they are kept from me when I attempt to. A couple of issues with my husband, he is a registered sex offender (which he did not disclose to me until after we were married) in Utah and Texas , he has a pending DUI case in Utah and he has kidnapped and intentionally and deliberately kept my kids from me. There are also police reports proving physical abuse against me by my husband. I call my kids every day. My kids are 2 and 4 years old. I have missed both of their birthdays, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. Camden is 4 and Tracen is 2. There have sometimes been 6-7 days where nobody will answer the phone or call me back. This is affecting my boys to the extent that Camden has gone almost four weeks now without saying ANYTHING to me on the phone. I know he’s listening, but he won’t talk. Their father and grandmother are committing emotional child abuse on them. I am begging you to use what influence you may have to urge the judge in Texas to maintain jurisdiction here in Texas , as it is the proper jurisdiction and I have maintained residency here for over a year. I have made Texas my home. I don’t plan to move and this is where I want my children raised.

    I am forwarding this e-mail to Texas and Utah Senators, Representatives, Governers and local news media.

    I need your help so that the bond and emotional connection I have with my kids is not lost. Please!

    Thank You,

    Marlnene F. Graham

    • Lynn says:

      I will forward a letter of support to your judge tomorrow. However, you have the same rights to the kids you need to go and get them. Also, make sure that you have an order specifically telling the sheriff or police officers to take the children into custody. Otherwise, they will not be accountable. You can hold them in contempt of court if they fail to follow the court’s order. Furthermore, they won’t have the “authority” to get your children.

    • P. K. says:

      IF YOU STLL NEED SOME HELP, YOU CAN CONTACT ME AT tfpa2005@aol.com, i may be of assistance to you. I have recovered many children, but i am retred now, but i may be able to give you some idea’s……

    • dee says:

      Was wondering how this turned out? Anyone know?

  13. Celeste says:

    I recall reading on the Doe Network’s write up on Therese Walsh’s profile and it stated that her mother wasn’t allowed to see her unless she passed a psychiatric evaluation. The father was proven to never have had any inappropriate contact with his daughter nor were the allegations ever proven in court?
    I’ve got one question though? Now that Threse is of age, she’s 28 now isn’t she?, but she still hasn’t come out of hiding. Why do you think she hasn’t come out of hiding yet?

  14. Phil Kennedy says:

    contact me if you have not recovered you children, i may be able t help you.

    • dee says:

      I have abducted children by father, I have custody, and court orders to pick up in different state as he took them to his state. he is a cop and cops in town he lives and works will not enforce Domestic violence restraining order, order of violating DVRO, parental kidnapping, child endangerment, and even a DA order to bust down the door all hours to return children to mother. They won’t enforce since he is a cop they said. Judge wont give order either. Can you help?

  15. Jen says:

    I just came across this and want to say something. Some of these comments are bullshit. There is a serious problem where the courts will NOT help the children. I know a 4 year old boy who was molested and raped by his father. Instead of running you all want people like that to hand their child over to the molester/rapist? Your out of your minds! Yeah, some of these women might be lying. However, when your childs life is in the hands of judge because some pedophiles lawyer can talk better, and they issue you to hand your kids to them, then we will have a converstation and talk. Good for Faye! I hope she saves a ton of kids from these sick men! And to the mothers that are going through this, DONT GIVE UP! Protect them with everything you got!

    • Jennifer says:

      I completely agree with you Jen. I think Faye is doing the job that the courts SHOULD have done in the first place. I am in the same position right now with my two young sons. My ex-husband has put me through a nightmare. How much physical and emotional abuse should one family take? My ex has lied and twisted his way to bring me down. I am fighting a losing battle with the courts as he has inside females that work in the family division. Now, I recently was told that he is going into the police academy. He told me once that he will do whatever it takes to get the children away from me just to make me suffer. He has also told me I was his property and that he would rather see me dead than with anyone else. I don’t understand how a person with a domestic violence background is now going to become a police officer entrusted with a gun and the chance to do whatever he pleases. I just got documentation again yesterday that he wants to take the kids away and I am left feeling sick about this. I don’t know what to do….do I run with them…or turn them over to a man that will physically harm them??? Sorry to say but if I found someone that could help me I would probably run to. Keeping my children safe me more to me than my own life. And I will do whatever is in me to protect them from harm.

    • vbm says:

      I agree with you on this. I am not a man hater. I am married. I did have to leave though yrs. ago to protect my son who is now 30 yrs. old. No arrest was ever issed for me. This did cause some hurtful feelings with family members but the main thing was to make my son safe which is what I did. Was it fun? No…It was difficult. I have never regretted leaving when I did. I gave up a mobile home I was buying and a 10 yr job that I had worked very hard at in Insurance.

  16. mutiny says:

    I took my 18 month old daughter and left America beacause I knew I would never get a a fair case.m My husband stole ALL our money and put it towards his attorney days after I discovered he ea seeing another woman. He cut off all my credit cards and bank affiliations so I was left with nothing…of while he was carrying on witg his little lovely affair…oh and while our duagghter was in heart failur. She survived but 4 days later my sister died drom a rare heart problem. 3 weeks later my other sister was rushed to hospital anf nearly died/ It s funny ho when i complained about th same syptoms. I was told I was maskimg it up wantin popel to feel sorry for mefarhthest from the truth“““`..“““““““““.

    • underwatch says:

      Dear Mutiny, the moment you boarded the plane with your child without a court order, you became a Family Abductor as well as Judge, Jury and Executioner. Unfortunately, you left behind your rights to co-parent your children. It’s up to you now to swallow your pride and rebuild your character and reputation with the American Courts. Yes, if you stayed in the U.S. and went through the court system you would have joint custody of your children today. So what’s so bad about joint custody? The good news is that it usually doesn’t take much effort to re-gain your custodial rights is you swallow your pride and demonstrating to the courts that you can co-parent your children.

    • EFM says:

      you are a sick woman for taking your child away
      from her dad. Ofcourse he left you, you are an
      ill person. You selfishly complain about how
      bad he was to you, but offer no reason to keep
      his child away from him. Your selfish, mentally
      ill and do not deserve to be a mother.
      He cheated on you because he knew you were
      unbalanced and probably already used the kid as
      bait.
      Karma

      • dee says:

        Wow, so judgmental for a women who was telling you she was ABANDONED with a child left with NO MONEY, cancelled credit cards, and no money for a lawyer. Clearly a man that does not care that the child had heart issues, abandoned them leaving penniless which is illegal in most states shows this man is uncaring. Condoning this man for cheating is wrong as he could have left properly without an affair, and provided for his family; but chose the cowards way and to cause INTENTIONAL harm. Who are you to call anyone mentally unbalanced or mentally ill from her comments? Didn’t this father abandoned the family leaving for a mistress and left no support even while their are life threatening health problems? Really? Must we simply attack someone because a deadbeat left and she decided to leave as well? Your comments are hateful, intentional, done with malice, and no basis in fact; as even a doctor would not diagnos this person as mentally ill. Way to show support for someone telling their plight.

  17. mutiny says:

    sorry that was sent way before ready! Don’t we all just want a normal safe life for our kids? Or maybe an unconventional life that we still want our children to be happy and safe? kids being shuffled about between parents and courts for long periods of times is not right. It’s disgusting…Amyway…best thing I did was leave it all and bring my daughter up in a safe world without thr carazy courts or crazy x husband who raped me 2 meters from her!

  18. Concerned mother says:

    I may info soon on how to help my 5 yr old. She told me two months ago her non custodial father had been sexually assaulting her. I have reported it to everyone. The police have not brought charges and my ex has hired an attorney and I can’t even get a permenante restraining order. I do have a TRO. The way this is going is frightening. his lawyer is lying to the judge and the police won’t call me back. My daughter has night terrors and started wetting the bed, she acts like an adult with PTSD. What can I do?
    If he is not charged will I have to give him visitation?

    • underwatch says:

      Hi CM, First of all, any parent that believes his or child is being abused by their spouse should get their child into therapy and to their child’s peditrician for a professional opinion. As a parent, it is extremely dangerous to rely on only your unqualified observations and parenting skills, unless you directly witnessed this. Parents and overzealous unqualified protective parent advocates like Faye Yager should never interview a child. There is a underground mom that was so convinced, she put a microphone in a stuffed animal. She never found any evidence although her story appeared on a National TV Show. Several years later after she went underground, a civil war broke out where she was a refugee. She called her former spouse and told him to come get his son. The point is, did she believe the allegation, was it a reasonable belief or was she so motivated by anger and revenge over her failed marriage that she just didn’t want to share custody. In that case, it sounds like she never really believed it. I read a child’s therapist once asked a custodial-embattled mother, “If I told your child was not abused by your former spouse, would that be a good or bad thing?” How would you answer that question?

      • H says:

        What an idiot! underwatch, you actually say “as a parent, it is extremely dangerous to rely on only your unqualified observations”. Seriously? Personally, I think it’s extremely dangerous to NOT rely on your ‘unqualified’ observations! You are most certainly male, as no female would ever doubt gut instinct. Then again, men are lousy at that. Goes back to cave man days, where men sat for hours, doing absolutely nothing but staring at a field, hoping some animal would come within throwing distance of whatever crude weapon they were holding; while women were at camp, tending the fire, preparing/cooking food, tanning hides, watching the children to ensure something didn’t drag them off, and a million other tasks. Instinct and gut feelings have been proven time and time again to be much more highly developed in women than in men.

      • Grambo says:

        Underwatch, I have to agree with “H”, that NOT depending on your common sense is extremely dangerous. You are clearly biased toward “joint custody” as a fair and legal distribution of “property” – NOT the rights of children to safety and/or security.

      • underwatch says:

        Grambo, I once heard one of the Underground Attorneys state, Why are the courts so interested in joint custody?” He would like to go back to maternal custody.

        In 2013, the family courts are clearly interested in co-parenting. It’s common sense that a man has an equal legal right to being a parent.

        If you believe something other than that, it’s most likely you would not make a good candidate for co-parenting. My guess is that your evaluator in any custody evaluation would have noticed that.

        The Editor

      • dee says:

        It matters not whether you are a mother or father. What matters is how you care for your children. If you are a mother and abuse your child, co parenting will not work and the father should have custody. If you are a father that abuses your child, co parenting will not work and mother should have custody of the child. The federal laws on abuse agree with this as do MANY states that have the prusumptive laws that if you are found to have a DVRO or abuse like sex assault, you do NOT get ANY share of custody.
        Again, it is not just black and white and EVERYONE should co parent. It would appear that MOST of the people if not ALL of the people on this site are discussing ABUSE to their children. Abuse does not lend itself to co parenting except that i some situations supervised visits are granted. But really supervised visits are extremely harmful to children from sexual and domestic abuse and is generally not in the best interest of the children. This is decided by the courts, and not by the opinion of the editor of this blog.

      • underwatch says:

        Dee,

        We have been following the issue of “domestic violence” and “family violence” over the past forty years. In the ’70s and ’80s, the DV Community was able to wrongfully convince the public that domestic violence was not a two-way street. A woman or mother could not be an abuser. As you know, that’s no longer the case. The problem with DVROs or Domestic Violence Restraining Orders is what if the police come to arrest someone and the father is the one with the bruises and scratches. Should the courts, child advocates and the public conclude the the mother is a danger to her children. If the man checked into to the nearest battered fathers shelter in another state with his children, should the courts grant him permanent sole custody?

        Unfortunately, the claim that a father or mother fears for their life and the safety of his or her children needs to be carefully and independently investigated. It’s really sad to see such allegations from two adults that married and then brought a child or children into this World. The excuse, “well she or he is no longer the person I married” is very lame. This is why I believe the courts now favor co-parenting.

        In the end, not all women or mothers are Susan Smith, Andrea Yates or Lorena Bobbitt.

        The Editor

      • dee says:

        Dee responding to editor. I agree that claims of Domestic Violence should be carefully looked at. I realize some peole use it also as a retalitory vengence because they are abusive and have a DVRO and the courts in many states do not generally do mutual restraining orders. But some do, and interstate issues the other person doesn’t state there are already DVRO on them when filing. There are games with this, yes.

        But Domestic violence far over reaches the issue of being married and having children. DV is happening to many people not married, and have no children. Domestic violence is still not really standarized EVEN though there are MANDATORY commands of which the courts and law enforcment MUST follow, and they simply do not. It is not in their discretion NOT to enforce the mandatory commands. That is where the danger lies. He is a “good” person so let’s let it slide attitude helps no one and happens all the time.

        Domestic Violence also matters not if you married and have children together. That does not mean you are to be abused as the laws are clearly there to protect ANYONE from that, man or women, child, husband or wife. If there is child abuse and domestic violence the SAFETY of the children IS THE CONCERN; not co parenting. If it gets to the point there is a domestic Violence Restraining Order made, generally co parenting is out and lucky if there is supervised visits. The mental and emotional trauma to a child forced to be with their abuser for the sake of the abuser trying to co parent is not thinking of the childs best interest. Granted this is not the prefered way for anyone to parent as it is always hoped there can be two parents. But if it is NOT healthy for the child, it is not healthy for the child period.

        It matters not if the abuser is married or not, or if the abuser is a male or female. If a child is harmed, the child must be protected. By the way, parental kidnapping is domestic abuse, and the worst form of child abuse. They can justify it IF actual proof of protecting from harm with doctors, courts, law enforcment history of abuse. Whether you or anyone agrees with them taking the children to protect the child, does not matter, only the ability to prove the actual abuse. Sometimes, removing the child is the safe thing to do; but I believe after removing the child a court can then decide how it continues. The problem these days is the whole we need to co parent is the new thing and they think they have to do that with every case in some courthouses which really IS NOT the directive. The directive is the best interest of the children, not the best interest of the parent or the courts idea of co parenting or maternal parenting. ANY parent can be the better parent, ANY parent can be abusive, ANY parent can loose the right to parent their child by abuse, and loose it for unjustified and unprovable need to parentally kidnap the children. Simply children need protecting from abuse.

  19. Homepage says:

    Good job on this article! I really like how you presented your facts and how you made it interesting and easy to understand. Thank you. 308359

  20. vbm says:

    No, I have never seen any videos of her browbeating anyone. I came to her and asked for her help….The FBI was looking for things to catch her with then….I had money to leave with when I left…She never promised me anything…I was never wanted or charged with any kidnapping…Hope this helps you…..

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  22. Natika S says:

    I have been volunteering at a homeless shelter in Brevard, NC. It’s a good place run and operated by good people. I consider all of the staff and some of the residents to be friends of mine. There are rules and there is a process to becoming a resident there. The residents MUST be able to pass a background check which is for the safety of the residents and any children that may be there. Some people come and go there quickly but some stay for months at a time due to different reasons. Some are waiting for their disability to start are some and there waiting to be placed in government housing. They are homeless but that does not reflect upon their character except maybe to say they are strong people. It’s not easy to reside with 17 other people that have also had to stay there. That’s 18 different personalities in one room. That’s three bathrooms for 18 people, one washer and one dryer, one kitchen and one refrigerator. It’s hard to live like that but the staff, volunteers and residents make it work with the help of generous donors and the citizens of this small town. There are different churches, organizations and businesses that help as much as they can. The Haven works closely with the Department of Social Services and Brevard Housing Authority to help the residents locate permanent housing. Some of these organizations are also run by donations only. There are a lot of people in this small town that go forth and donate their time, money and resources to helping those that are less fortunate. Some do because they feel it is the right thing to do. Some do because they are happy to look and say “I helped with that.” Still others only do so that they can say they did as a matter of “look at me I did good.” They do for accolades and status. There are still some that just wish to take advantage of someone in a bad situation because they feel like they can.

    I recently met a new resident of Haven and he and his family will remain nameless for confidential reasons but I have permission to tell you his story. I’m going to call him Jeff just to simplify things from here on. Jeff came into The Haven more than a week ago with his two children. He had been residing in Brevard for about 6 weeks and was working at a local Inn. There was an agreement for pay plus room and board for him and his two children. As someone that is also a single parent I can honestly say that it would seem like a pretty good deal. When he and his family got here things quickly changed. Jeff has not been paid a dime of the agreed upon amount from his employer so he is essentially destitute. To make matters worse he is now unemployed and without his belongings. He took his kids to the park to play and when they returned to their home which is also where he worked everything was gone. Their clothes, toys, bed, phone and even the kids Wii, system which they had been given as a gift. What was not in their vehicle was gone. Jeff has been told that their things were bagged up and left in the street and someone else must have stolen it. Jeff and his family then made their way to The Haven.

    Jeff and his family came to The Haven on a Saturday afternoon. While The Haven wants to help as many as possible it was completely full at that time. Several residents left over that weekend so hopefully he would be able to move himself and his small family in Monday after his background check. That still left the question of where they could stay over the weekend. A volunteer gave them a place to stay Saturday night where they could at least eat, shower and sleep. Another volunteer from another organization housed them on Sunday night. On Monday Jeff and his family became residents of The Haven so things were looking up just a bit. Tuesday afternoon it came crashing down. The Department of Social Services had received a report from his employer against Jeff for child abuse and neglect and they arrived at The Haven to collect Jeff and his children. His children have been in foster care since then and Jeff has been scrambling trying to find a way to have them returned. The employer that Jeff had has a history where she is notorious for helping non-custodial parents to kidnap and disappear with children. The employers name is Faye Yager. Ms. Yager is co-founder of Children of the Underground which is an organization that she created to take abused children from abusive parents. Sounds like a good idea doesn’t it? What happens when she helps to remove children from a home that has no abuse and returns them to a home where they have been abused by an older sibling? That’s what Jeff and his family are going through. Shortly after Ms. Yager tossed Jeff and his children into the streets I started asking questions and have discovered a few things regarding her and her habits.

    Ms. Yager has a habit of hiring people from the homeless or near homeless communities and then firing them for theft and not paying them for the work they have performed. I know of five different people with connection to The Haven that she has done this to within the last six months. She offers these people pay with room and board and they work for a few weeks with no pay and then she fires them and they are without a home or a job. Her reason for firing them is always theft. That’s a lot of employee turn over for theft in a busy tourist season. I don’t know about anyone else but it makes me wonder about her employment practices. Ms. Yager is also allegedly under investigation with the North Carolina Labor Board for these hiring and firing habits. I made a few more phone calls to people in other states about Ms. Yager because I don’t want to take just the opinion of one or to rely on Google for my information and I learned a few more things about Ms. Yager. There are still children and parents in her underground network that are hiding from their alleged abusers. In some cases there is no proof of the alleged abuse but she helps these people to disappear. The non-custodial parent is then called a kidnapper and Ms. Yager is called a hero. Ms. Yager has been arrested and tried in the past for what she has done but states that she will continue to help hide the non-custodial parents and their children. From what I’ve learned she will do so with no evidence. The word most used to describe Faye Yager by everyone I have spoken with is “crazy.”
    Now that Jeff and his family have been separated due to the actions of Ms. Yager, the children’s non-custodial parent is staying in Ms. Yager’s residence in Brevard, NC, which is called the Inn of Brevard. It has also come to light that Ms. Yager and she have been in contact for some time. Jeff’s children are likely to be returned to the custody of their mother which is a travesty as her older son sexually abused both of them. The older son still resides with the mother and the abuse is likely to begin again. Ms. Yager may call herself helping these children but her actions speak of something else. In the past week Ms. Yager has fired Jeff with no separation notice or pay, emptied storage containers in his room and made it to appear as poor housekeeping and then took pictures, removed his belongings from the room without his knowledge or permission and did so without the presence of the police and then contacted Social Services with her “proof” of Jeff’s neglect. She also managed to accomplish all of this without paying him anything for the work he has done in the last six weeks. Honestly, is Ms. Yager a help or a hindrance to the citizens and children of Brevard? What gives Ms. Yager the right to act as judge, jury and executioner? Honestly, we need to stand up to her and fight back.

  23. underwatch says:

    Hi Natika,

    Thanks for sharing this story. This information about these children and Faye Yager is very sad. Do you know if it has been passed on to local law enforcement?

    - The Editor

  24. forthelost says:

    dee: Statistically mothers are more likely to abuse children than fathers: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/research-data-technology/statistics-research/child-maltreatment

    I’m anti-parental kidnapper, regardless of the gender of the parent.

  25. dee says:

    It is GREAT to hear you are anti kidnapping on either sex!!! Yea!

    But you are not getting the correct satistics with your link, nor did you [provide ANY “many resources” to help mothers. Have any of those “many resources” you can list? As explained that seems to be your opinion as no resources are being listed.

    Maltreatment and domestic violence are 2 DIFFERENT statistics. Mothers on this cite are raising the fact of domestic abuse, NOT various levels of claims of maltreatment which is a much broader demographics also including foster parents etc. Domestic abuse, using domestic abuse in custody cases, and using legal litigation as abuse, is a very narrow demographic. THAT demographic is the husband predominately has the CONTROL especially financially as abusers are controlers and generally separate the women from friends, family and ANY support group that deviates the control from the abuser. THAT demographic is the MAN who uses litigation abuse to continually harm, abuse, and control the mother additionally threatening the use of losing the children. THAT demographic the ABUSER manipulates the court claiming the ABUSER is the victim, forcing the mother to try to not only protect herself but also her children as the abuser usually does UNDERHANDED ex parte orders to gain custody of the child claiming an emergency that the Mother then needs to fight legally in court when there is NO basis for the emergency order. THAT demographic has so many studies that clearly state this and patricia Hoff has many studies you can read, as well as SO many other. Courts turn a blind eye to this abuse which JUST NOW is starting to finally get the courts to acknowledge this happens. In THIS demographic the women is abused generally, does not have money to fight this continual abuse, and the mother and the innocent children are harmed. These children by ALL studies live lives of lack of trust, social inadiquatcies, and anger, many never having a way to adjust growing up, which leads to their entire life a struggle as well as CANNOT have normal relations with people in general, let alone any healthy relationship. This is just another form of parental alienation by using the legal system to manipulate it knowing the Mother has no money to fight it; instead of kidnapping the children. The result is actually quite similiar unfortunetly, and innocent children are being harmed. ALSO this is not co-parenting as the editor loves as the abuser takes generally full custody claiming a false emergency, then tries to claim the false emergency means the Mother should not have custody even if dropped. So in this DEMOGRAPHIC the women are being continuously harmed with domestic abuse under the rouse it is legal proceedings which some have over 10 different proceedings until the women just gives up not wanting to be falsely arrested or accused, and having NO money to defend as AGAIN there are no free lawyers in family law.

    So when a mother goes through ALL this over and over again, as I am again a good example with my story of litigation abuse from my husband ALSO done illegally against the statutes but courts don’t see that, they simply see the ONE case in front of them which compartimentally makes only one issue in front of the judge to resolve based on generally the simple PERJURY of the father with no chance of rebutal as is ex parte with NO NOTICE to mother as well JUST to get the order since ORDERS are harder to vacate even when they are done illegally as AGAIN my story clearly shows the harm from this manipulation; the Mother has to make tough decisions to protect their children and at that moment co-parenting is NOT the answer and the answer is to get your children in a safe environment. Sometimes that decision is to leave since cannot afford the lawyers, as there are NOT “many resources” as claimed by the editor to help the victims in this. THAT is a serious problem that co-parenting is NOT the answer as also the abuser obviously will not work with Mother to co-parent as wants total control as is the MO of abusers.

    THIS demographic has very little help and ultimately while the children are not kidnapped per the law, they are parentally aliented, and live a developmentally disfunctional life IF the abuser keeps control. The abuser should have SUPERVISED visits to stop the child abuse as THE CHILDREN are the concern NOT co-parenting, and if cannot have supervised visits as it will harm the children mentally or emotional it should be NO visitation. That is the case whether the abuser is the WOMEN or the MAN as the CHILDREn are the concern NOT which parent.

    If you have any resources that would help as you claim, THAT is the link you should post, NOT the deflection of the wrong demographic to prove your point. And yes, statistically women still have primary custody and therefore there are many more claims of maltreatment including nosey busy bodies calling on mothers in a supermarket disceplining their children, foster homes with disruptive children, and so many other variables NOT in the narrow demographic of domestic violence and custody cases. Yes, men are still in the minority for primary care but that is NOT from the courts simple stating the Mother gets the children since she is a women, it is based on the fact that the husband or father was the primary worker and the mother was the primary caregiver. It is NOT beneficial to rip the children from their primary caregiver as they feel in the STATUTES that is NOT in the best interest of the children. They believe now the best interest is to have equal connection with both parents IF there is no abuse.IF there is abuse there is a presumption that parent is not to have the control or in some cases ANY share of custody. This is also why the ABUSER tries to claim abuse to harm the victim, first to place the Mother on defense and fighting proving not an abuser with NO MONEY to do so as well. Fathers that are great with their children IS NOT the deciding factor if they will not be able to spend the time the Mother can to care for the children. Until THAT specific issue the father can overcome, the court will predominetely find the Mother more available to meet the needs of the children. Generally fathers are more concerned with making money to control and spend the way they want, and having secondary custody gives them the freedom to go date, bring their dates home to sleep with, and WHEN THEY want to be with the children, they will do so ALSO avoiding all the MESSY parts of childhood like nightly homework, whining, daily care pressures so they can just have fun with not much responsibilities of the day to day children issues men in general do NOT like to deal with. Since MEN are generally like this, and also PREFER this arrangement as it makes their life easier for them, there is not really going to be a big transition for fathers to have full custody. IN FACT most claims for fathers to have custody changes is BECAUSE they have remarried so they can give the children’s responsibility to the NEW wife, not that the father wants the responsibility, generally it is done to ELIMINATE child support, AGAIN not in the best interest of the children.

    These ARE the NORM and the statistics claim is the case.

  26. underwatch says:

    Sorry about the mistake. It is now fixed.

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