The Leaders

The Alleged Leaders – Protective Parent Group

  • Faye Yager is the most recognized name of the alleged leaders of the underground. She will confess to involvement or at least a phone call with any underground mom. She’ll allegedly admit to it even if she had nothing to do with the case to cover up for those that have direct involvement. We’ve found a picture of her smiling that was taken by photographer Allan Dietrich. Yager once faced a prison term of 66 years. She has been sued with judgments ordered for thousands of dollars. She claims that she doesn’t have any money nor does she exchange Christmas presents with her husband. With a pending grand jury indictment, we don’t think she is smiling these days. We also hear that she is no longer living in Georgia.
  • JoanPennington is alleged to be the real leader of the Underground as Executive Director of the National Center for Protective Parents. See her picture at the site of Freedom Magazine of the International Church of Scientology. Joan is the author of a legal book on the Underground for Attorneys representing abducting mothers. She is the one that coined the underground term protective parent. Her co-author was radical feminist attorney Joan Zorza of the National Center for Women and Family Law. Joan is trying to setup a nationwide referral and expert witness network of pro-bono attorneys to represent underground moms. Her organization will certify and train these attorneys. We also understand that her organization keeps files on all of the Underground moms. Our sources tell us that she was in hiding during the Philadelphia Federal Grand Jury investigation. If you ever wondered about motive for these organizations, check out this web page from the OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS that gave her organization an award amount of $236,998 in 1998.
  • LydiaRayner of Long Beach, Mississippi is an admitted leader of the Underground. Prior to her appearance on ABC Primetime for allegedly trying to help Bipin Shah, she was known for hiding Dorrie Singley and Karen Newsome. We actually found her organization Mothers Against Raping Children (M.A.R.C.) listed on the web.
  • Amy Neustein Ph.D. of Help Us Regain the Children is one of the alleged other leaders of the Underground. Her organization originally referred Underground Attorney Alan D. Rosenfeld to April Meyer. Amy has a perplexing story of her own as she no longer has custody of her child. Ms. Neustein, also refuses any sort of visitation. Her former spouse, a physician now has sole custody of their daughter. She allegedly conducts the Faye Yager type interviews on young children. She was a panelist with radical feminist Joan Zora and feminist author Karen Winner at the National Women’s Studies Association Meeting where the claim was made that women across the country are losing their children to batterers and child abusers in epidemic proportions as a result of biased family courts. Amy is also on the National Advisory for for MASA (Mother’s Against Sexual Abuse) whose National Office is located in the same area where April Meyer allegedly kidnapped her daughter.
  • DonnaMedley was once the guardian ad litem for Dorrie Singley’s child in San Francisco. Medley and Underground Attorney Sheila Brogna sued the State of Mississippi on behalf of the child in the Singley case. That case was dismissed by the Mississippi Supreme Court. While Medley worked for the District Attorney’s Office, we understand she allegedly tried to get funds for an underground mom in Yager’s organization. She later worked for the Family Abduction unit investigating kidnapping. We are happy to hear that she now works for the Office of Citizen Complaints. Here is a picture of Medley. We wouldn’t let her near our child.
  • Portia Davis is the Executive Directory of the Ross County Network for Children in Ohio. On her guestbook, she uses the term, protective parent that many consider hard evidence that she is the contact in the Midwest for the Underground. She is a member of the National Alliance for Family Court Justice.
  • Margi McCue of Portland/Milwaukee, Oregon has had direct involvement with Faye Yager and a number of underground cases. She is involved with the Unitarian Universalist Services Committee that has many global activities but has not yet been directly connected to the Underground.
  • Connie Valentine’s current organization is the California Protective Parents Association that has a Web site that is hosted by the California National Organization for Women. Valentine, was once a state employee who worked with mental health patients was reassigned to administrative duties in 1993 after her appearance on a nationally televised show in which she claimed a satanic cult forced her to kill people when she was a little girl. Her organization used the underground term “protective parent“.
  • April Meyer is vying for the position of the next Faye Yager. We hear that April has now moved up to Dexter, Oregon with her parents. Her parents, James and Mary Curtis have admitted to helping to hide several underground moms and their children at the so called Curtis Compound. April has appeared on Sally, Geraldo, Leeza and in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Article. Yet, she claims to not know the location of her daughter. We understand LifeTime Cable did a movie on her story and she made some money. Now let’s ask some of these reporters how they concluded that April Meyer had nothing to do with hooking Amanda  up with Underground. Do they honestly want us to believe that Amanda alone decided to call up Faye Yager and go Underground.
  • OurChildren Our Future They are a new organization in California that are strong supporters of the underground. See their web page for a list of quotes from a who’s who list of underground attorneys and supporters.
  • Rosalyn Beasley from San Diego, California climbed aboard Faye Yager’s Underground Railroad in the early ’90s with her young son. She was caught in the Montpellier, Vermont, the former home of the the law practice of Underground Attorneys Harrison and Rosenfeld. She use to called The Friends of Elizabeth Morgan. They are alleged to help parents go Underground. At her trial in San Diego, Underground Attorney Alan Rosenfeld showed up and tried to get himself admitted pro hac vice. The Judge did not admit him, so Underground Attorney Rosenfeld left town. Beasley later plead guilty and received probation. Her son now lives happily with the father in a different state. Beasley is alleged to have tried multiple times to re-kidnap her son. We understand she rarely exercises her supervised visitation sessions. Beasley now living in Encinitas, California is alleged to be the main Underground contact in the San Diego area.
  • Alliancefor Rights of Children (ARCH) use to be called The Friends of Elizabeth Morgan. They are alleged to help parents go Underground.

The Individuals and Organizations that Profit

  • The National Center for Protective Parents is the organization that is the alleged intake point, legal referral center, legal training center and shelter for parents going into hiding. They are listed as a New Jersey United Way funded organization. Their Executive Director is Joan Pennington.
  • The Ledership Council —  A nonprofit organization that misuses psychological services to empower their professional reputations and indirectly promote such causes as “protective parenting”, parental kidnapping, maternal custody and lobby against such causes as “parental alienation syndrome. Their advisors include: Paul J. Fink (APSAC), Joyanna L. Silberg, PhD, Toby Kleinman, Esq., Richard Ducote, JD, Seth L. Goldstein, JD, Hol. Sol Gothward, JW, Geraldine Stahly, PhD, and Joan Zorza J.D.
  • Child Abuse Solutons The Executive Director is Underground or Protective Parent Attorney Meera Fox. Their list of faculty include Linda Barnard, Richard Ducote, Vincent J. Felitti, M.D., Robert Geffner, Seth Goldstein, Hon. Sol Gothard, Karen Hawthorne, Hon Eugene Hyman, Megan Lehmer, Geraldine Butts Stahly and Joyanna Silberg.
  • Alan D. Rosenfeld is the Attorney for the Underground. Alan Rosenfeld is known for his tossled hair, beard and wrinkled suit flying around the country without time to buy a new suit or visit the barber. He’ll enter a new case, ask the court to give have the public defender sponsor him with pro hac vice status. The county will then pay for his expert witnesses to fly in from all over the country. He’ll get the local domestic violence shelter to raise funds to pay his hotel bill. Some allege that he is paid from a trust account that is setup before the mom goes into hiding. He currently represents April Meyer. He has tried to get his colleague Sheila Brogna from the Dorrie Singley case to represent Amanda Otter. He has been suspended once by the Vermont Bar for recommending to a client that she violate a court order and for not having good financial records. Our subscribers tell us that he is often seen holding hands and hugging his clients. He walked Amanda Otter to school when she was younger and was present when one of April Meyer’s kids was born. He received a sanction in 1991 by the Vermont Bar Association and more recently suspended for 6 months in Colorado in 2008 serving a 6 months probation in PEOPLE v. ROSENFELD The PEOPLE of the State of Colorado, Complainant, v. Alan David ROSENFELD, Respondent -No. 06PDJ094 – November 21, 2007
  • Joyanna L. Silberg, PhD — She is the new extremist psychologists that is taking on plight against our family law courts awarding joint custody to parents after any domestic violence allegation. Her claim that 58,000 children year in the U.S. are abuse victims that are ordered by the family court to have unsupervised contact with abusers when their parents divorce has tenets lobbying our courts away from the preferred joint custody to maternal custody. Her current poster child for her cause is now Jennifer Collins.
  • Toby Kleinman is an alleged new protective parent attorney from New Brunswick, NJ who appeared at a Family Violence Conference in San Diego in 2001 discussing Desperate Moms Taking Children Underground.She is quoted as follows: “Mothers every day are put in a catch-22,” said Toby Kleinman, an attorney who has consulted on cases involving protective mothers who took their children into hiding. “You are required to report it if you suspect sexual abuse, but if you report it and can’t substantiate it, you risk losing your children.(article)”.Bar Association Complaints June
    23, 2005 – New Jesery District VIII Ethics Committee, Public Discipline of Toby Kleinman
    Organizations
    Center for Protection of Children, Inc., Piscataway, NJ-this is a new non-profit organization that will compete with the National Center for Protective Parents for federal and state grants as well as donations.
  • Ted Gunderson is the private investigator and former FBI agent who appeared in many early underground cases. It was once alleged that Faye Yager was able to get Ted to help keep her out of jail. Ted retired from the FBI in 1979, and opened his private ivestigation firm, Ted L. Gunderson and Associates in Santa Monica, California. He is known for his belief in and investigation of criminal conspiracies involving cults run by government officials. This includes the McMartin Preschool alleged tunnels which was proven to be false. In other words, Gunderson is a private investigator and has the ability to find evidence for the underground cases. See his Wikipedia entry.
  • Sheila Brogna is another Attorney for the Underground. She first became involved with the Underground becoming the attorney for Dorrie Singley’s child. Singley died while Underground in New Orleans and the child surfaced in San Francisco. The custody of the child went back to the father and Brogna appealed it to the Mississippi Supreme Court. She wrote an article for Family Advocate Newsletter of the American Bar Association about the Underground. In June of 1997, she chaired a breakout session of a ABA meeting on representing children. She talked about a minor child’s right to choose her own attorney rather than have one appointed by the court. In this case, her claim was that 13 year old Amanda Otter, daughter of Underground leader April Meyer chose Brogna. Wow again…
  • Womanspace, Inc. is a nonprofit agency providing an array of services to women in crisis in the Mercer County, NJ. They have claimed to have helped over 22,000 women. With Ms. Pennington speaking at a meeting in 1996, we would encourage law enforcement to investigate family abductions from the shelter.

The Underground Attorneys Conference Circuit

  • Alan D. Rosenfeld is the Attorney for the Underground. Alan Rosenfeld is known for his tossled hair, beard and wrinkled suit flying around the country without time to buy a new suit or visit the barber. He’ll enter a new case, ask the court to give have the public defender sponsor him with pro hac vice status. The county will then pay for his expert witnesses to fly in from all over the country. He’ll get the local domestic violence shelter to raise funds to pay his hotel bill. Some allege that he is paid from a trust account that is setup before the mom goes into hiding. He currently represents April Meyer. He has tried to get his colleague Sheila Brogna from the Dorrie Singley case to represent Amanda Otter. He has been suspended once by the Vermont Bar for recommending to a client that she violate a court order and for not having good financial records. Our subscribers tell us that he is often seen holding hands and hugging his clients. He walked Amanda Otter to school when she was younger and was present when one of April Meyer’s kids was born. Wow….

The Legal Conference Circuit / Expert Witnesses

  • The Leadership Council is the group of extremist child abuse professionals that support protective parents and domestic violence advocates that want to roll back the clock to the days of maternal custody at any hint of a family violence allegation of a mother. For the cause, there are some that believe these professionals would see child abuse in every case.
  • TheChild Abuse Forensic Institute The board of this organization contains Seth Goldestein, Joan Pennington and Ann Haralambie. We mention Haralambie to the extent that an unnamed woman approached a recovered underground child allegedly on behalf of the noncustidal underground mom. The woman inappropriately told the 14 year old child if he wanted to live with his mom, the child needed to contact Ms. Haralambie. This event occurred several weeks after Haralambie attended a law conference in which underground attorney Sheila Brogna gave a seminar on the legal rights of children to choose their own attorney. BTW, it was Brogna who tried to become Amanda Otters’ attorney with Alan Rosenfeld represented the abducting mother.
  • Richard Ducote spoke at the National Organization of Forensic Social Work on 15th Annual Conference on April 19-22, 1998 on The Dr. Elizabeth Morgan Story: An Insider’s View. Ducote is one of those expert witnesses that surfaces at the trials of these abducting parents. He currently represents underground mom Rosalyn Beasley (see above), who plead guilty to going underground with her son in the late late ’80s and was arrested in Montpellier, Vermont — birthplace of the underground. Here is a link to a picture of Richard Ducote.
  • Seth L. Goldstein, J.D. spoke at the National Organization of Forensic Social Work 15th Annual Conference on April 19-22, 1998 on he Problem of Sorting Out Child Sexual Abuse Allegations in Divorce Cases Goldstein is another one of those professionals on the legal conference circuit and who participates as an expert witnesses that surfaces at the trials of these abducting parents.
  • Professor Hal Pepinsky This feminist criminal justice professor at the University of Indiana has been a long-time supporter of the Children of the Underground and protective parent group or cult. Faye Yager has been a frequent lecturer in his classes. However, here is what he wrote about Faye Yager.

The Journalists (Alleged Supporters)

  • Mckenzie Carpenter In 1997, Carpenter did a story with Allan Detrich on the Children of the Underground.
  • Allan Detrich In 1997, Detrich, a photographer for the Toledo Blade was present at the parental kidnappings of Ellen Dever and Bonnie Rubenstein. Detrich’s wife Mary Detrich, a physician is also alleged to be involved. Later in 2000, kidnapper David Hughes was arrested in his home. Alan was recently was allegedly fired by the Toledo Blade for altering photos, a major ethics violations of photo journlists.
  • Anna Quindlen She wrote one her her last columns in the NY Times about protective parents and underground moms and reports a case involving a mother who killed herself and her child. As a new reporter for Newsweek, she writes an article to support Andrea Yates, the mother who killed her children. We feel sorry for Quindlen’s children.
    Garland Waller In 2001, this Assistant Professor at Boston Univeristy produced a bias documentary entitled Small Justice: Little Justice in America’s Courts promoting the protective parent group or cult. There are some letters (letter1 letter 2) on Professor Waller’s site from children that could not have possible be written by these children without coaching from the non-custodial mothers.
  • Karen Winner is a radical feminist former news reporter whose child custody views of maternal custody vs. paternal custody is allegedly as outrageous as the KKK or Osama bin Laden. Her web site lists herself as an investigator of family courts, but she does not have any professional credentials or has never raised any children.
  • Paula S. Fass is a U.C. Berkeley History Professor that authored a book on Child Abduction in America. She’s a history professor not a psychiatrist, psychologist or social scientist that has no formal training in child abduction cases. Her book is inaccurate and depits her personal opinions on this subejct matter. We’ve seen her quoted by the Assoicated Press and wonder what educational training she has received to form her opinions. AP reporters should have contacted more reputable sources such as those that have authored research papers or studies published in the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children’s literature.

138 Responses to The Leaders

  1. Terry Now Robbie Taylor says:

    Please ask Faye if she remembers Sally 714. My girls are now both 21 years of age and I would love for them to meet her. She saved their lives. Even though we had to be in People Magazine, it has alllllll been worth it. Please, respond. We have waited for years to just say thank you!

    • Meghan Flanagan says:

      It is wonderful to see someone thanking Faye for the hard work she has done! I am so happy for your success story! I am a journalism student and I am writing a research paper on “Brave Thinkers” and I have chosen to write about Faye because my mother and I almost had to use her services as well so I deeply respect her. I am sure you probably do not want to be hassled, but if there is any way at all that you would be willing to give me a short interview or even just a statement for my paper I would GREATLY appreciate it! I would be willing to do the interview over email or phone or whatever is most convenient for you. Please let me know!!

      • April Curtis says:

        Hi,
        I was just checking this site for fun and saw your request. I am the April Meyer in all these stories. If you would like to contact me, I might be able to help you.
        April Robyn Curtis Meyer

      • desperatedad says:

        April, by the time you read this, I may well be deep underground. I have been desperately trying to keep my daughter safe from a psychopathic monster who has escaped justice and brags openly about how he has sexually abused my baby for years. I have exhausted every legal channel. As of this writing there are no warrants out for me, no Amber alerts and I have signed papers from the mother (who lives with the psycho) asking me to leave. How can a desperate father contact you or someone like you? I want justice for my baby, but no-one, not the D.A, not police, not DCF or anyone else wants to protect her, in spite of many, many pages of confessions and psychosexual evaluations on this monster. Please help, thank you!

    • Mark says:

      Listen Robbie, I would like to get involved in this underground network to help protect these horridly abused children from these slimepits. How do I go about this? How do I get in touch with this Faye Yeager? Of ourse I will submit to any investigation she would like. Please contact me ASAP, either by e-mail or 412 781 1147, best time to call is in the evening. God bless you!

      • Carrie says:

        I’m very interested in helping these families in hiding but don’t know who to contact so here is my number so they can contact me. 479-926-2639

      • Kate says:

        Are you helping women go underground? I desperately need help

    • sherry cameron says:

      Please contact me on my e-mail address as soon as possible.I need help please help this is not a joke.My granddaughter is in danger.

  2. underwatch says:

    Hi Terry,

    I guess your underground code name was “Sally 714″. Your girls are 21 years old, can you tell me what their life is like? Did they go to college? As adult children have they spoken to your former spouse? Did your former spouse re-marry and have children? What are their lives like compared to your children? What is your life like now? Did you remarry? Do you have a successful career now?

    We’ve examined a significant number of cases and would like to hear about yours. There are also many members of the media visit our site that might be interested in your story.

    BTW, if you want to thank Faye personally, if you have the economic means, book a room at her Bed and Breakfast in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Also, if you gave her any furniture, you might be able to see it there!

    Thanks.

    The Editor
    The Children of the Underground Watch Newsletter

    http://underwatch.wordpress.com/

    • Whistle Blower says:

      Dear Editor,

      It is obvious you have never been molested as an innocent child, or have ever come to know the fear, pain, and betrayal, or the life long emotional scars it leaves, not to mention in some cases repeats itself. So under those circumstances as a parent, sacrificing whether or not you have a successful career, or your child may or may not go to college or have a normal life??? So what are you proposing the child would have a normal life with a parent who is a molester? A normal life is based on love and safety, with or without a “successful career or college degree”. And I’d support the physical protection and emotional safety of being on the run with some one who loves me, than over your perspective of what is normal for a child being sexually, physically, or emotionally abused.

      And one of the reasons why children are not getting the protection that they need from the judicial system, is probably because the heads that have the college degrees, and successful careers, are making the choices not to protection our children, or at the very least, not changing the laws to do so.

      So now, what does that say about you? Well in my opinion, you’re doing a whole lot of talking and not saying very much at all. You’re responses are basically all redundant, demonstrating you are not a very advance thinker, or for that matter not even very intelligent, if this website is the only solution you can come up with to help or try and ensure the safety and protection of children. If you really knew what time it was, you would be praising, and kissing the ground Faye Yager walks on, as well as all “the leaders” that followed in her footsteps, supporting altruistic and bravest efforts. What are you doing, but staying all nice and safe behind your “let us all poo-poo Faye Yager” website? People like you, who talk, talk, talk, and say nothing useful that is genuinely helpful to those in trouble, are basically verbally masturbating in my opinion. So until you have the experiences of being innocently tortured by someone, and probably one of the only people in your life as a child that you depend on – SHUT UP… Because you never know, (and I would never wish this on anyone, not even you), you may come back in your next life time as a child on the run (that’s if your lucky) who’s been robbed of their innocence.

      If you haven’t gotten it by now, the majority of people coming across your site, aren’t in agreement with you. And that would be for a very good reason – It’s apparent you have no clue what you’re talking about. You may want to rethink your perspective, because it doesn’t seem your “college education” has not gotten your compassion or understanding very far in the true reality of this lifelong trauma. A college degree, and successful career is attainable even for these children – so don’t prejudge, or presume.

      Why don’t you put more of your energies in trying to change the law if you care so much that these children are subject to having to go underground, because you’re not doing so good in trying to change the opinions of those relying on, or supporting the underground necessity – And yes, REVERING what the Faye Yager’s of the world, because she is actually doing something about it and saving lives. While you just sit behind you whimpy website… Going off, and probably getting off, on your own “blab, blab, splish, splash”.
      Get another hobby.

      • underwatch says:

        Whistle Blower,

        What do you think of the Tonya Craft verdict? What about the $25 million dollar lawsuit her legal team filed against her accusers such as one of the moms, her former spouse and the social workers?

        The Editor

    • Lexi says:

      What B&B is she locted? I looked up but found many.

    • fran says:

      Sally I need your help deseratley My granddaughter is being forced to spend unsupervised visits with a very phycotic ?? on spelling the mother was threatened today in court and he has brought in a man to kill her. This is not a joke. We are scared to death and can only protect my daughter so much. The child does not want to go with him and is afraid that he will not bring her back to the mom. The court system has let them both down. Please help us hide them. This is a life and death matter. We want to put them underground but do not know how to do this. Help us save their lives.

  3. G.rama says:

    Thank you for caring about protecting kids from angry, controlling, abusers. The courts have a long way to go. My grandsons are victims of the system because they are forced to visit their father who is on a sex-offender registry. My daughter is still trying to placate a lunatic even though they’ve been divorced for 8 years. Boys are 12 and 14. When someone at school stumbles on their father’s name… they’re gonna hate him, the court, and the mother that tried to protect them. Guardian ad litem loved their father! Custody and vistitation need to include risk assessments. Thanks again.

  4. RhondaRhonda says:

    I keep tell you where a mass of children are, and the one’s behind it. I notice, if I post, it disappears, and nothing is heard. Makes you wonder if this website is here just to find the leaks and block them, and is part of the underground afterall.

    • disgusted by this site says:

      Why in the hell would you snitch them out? What if they are really hiding from a maniac? You’d risk it? For what possible reason?

      • underwatch says:

        Hi BabyManSirius,

        In response to your comment:

        “Why in the hell would you snitch them out? What if they are really hiding from a maniac? You’d risk it? For what possible reason?”

        In our experience monitoring these cases, the leaders of the Underground either do not research or are not qualified to investigate these cases. The “Protective Parent” cause is just another niche in the Divorce Industry. The recovered children in these cases are returned to the custodial and recovering parent families and the professionals and the courts find that the allegations were unjustified. The Protective Parent Kidnapper did not exhaust her legal remedies and the kidnapping was not a last resort. The Family Courts, Child Protective Services, Legal Guardian Attorney, Child Psychiatrists – these are qualified professionals that should be used in these cases rather than Interior Decorator or B&B Innkeeper like Faye Yager or the Faye Yager 2.0s out there.

        The Editor

      • fran says:

        Well what does a mom do when the whole court system has let her down for the past 8 years and then gives a child over to a man that says in court in front of the judge to his friend who is a known killer to take the mom out. I am all for any help that these moms can get. they have to be safe with their children and have a life free from fear of dieing

  5. RhondaRhonda says:

    Hmmmmm

  6. curt enos says:

    I would like to add the names Diane Hofheimer, Charles Hofheimer, and Kristen Hofheimer as a legal team that needs to be watched. They helped facilitate a parental kidnapping in January 2009 in Fairfax VA when they helped the wife of a Russian national flee to Russia with their two sons. They have employed Joyanna Silberg and Viola Vaughan-Eden as expert witnesses frequently in their cases which often involve making accusations of sexual abuse in custody cases. They appear in the Small Justice “documentary” by Garland Weller as the hero attorneys who fight for the kids. they have brought in Richard Ducote on a pro hac vice basis in several of their cases. These people are dangerous, have disrupted untold numbers of families and bear close watching.

    • SR says:

      The Hofheimers are exceptional and talented attorneys and advocates who fight for Protective parents and children who are being abused. If they are dangerous, as stated, then I would agree, dangerous to those abusers who are up against them.

  7. Denise Olsen says:

    My husband Eddie has hurt me for 13 years. I tried the court system and that did not work. When my daughter was little he hurt her and I would call the police, as she got older ,he started hurting her the same ways as me and always telling her that it was my fault she had gotten hurt from him. He said if I had just keeping my mouth shut, then he would never have needed to hurt her. He said if I would just be a good wife none of this would have Had to happen to either of us. It is very bad and I have covered for him many, many times, so no one will really trust my word . I name so sorry that it took me so long to try and get out. We want help, can you please help us to get out of this. Thank You Denise

  8. member of the Armed Resistance says:

    There is civil war coming to this great land of ours they the enemies of freedom will start it, we of the armed resistance will respond as necessary if you are an Enemy of the State beware your time will come for punishment those of you that are evil and violate the Constitution
    You can expect arrest and a speedy trial as afford by the very same Constitution you violate ,sentence will be carried out to the fullest extent of the Constitution

    An Angry father and soldier

  9. curt enos says:

    I
    would like to add the names Diane Hofheimer, Charles Hofheimer, and
    Kristen Hofheimer as a legal team that needs to be watched. They helped
    facilitate a parental kidnapping in January 2009 in Fairfax VA when
    they helped the wife of a Russian national flee to Russia with their
    two sons. They have employed Joyanna Silberg and Viola Vaughan-Eden as
    expert witnesses frequently in their cases which often involve making
    accusations of sexual abuse in custody cases. They appear in the Small
    Justice “documentary” by Garland Weller as the hero attorneys who fight
    for the kids. they have brought in Richard Ducote on a pro hac vice
    basis in several of their cases. These people are dangerous, have
    disrupted untold numbers of families and bear close watching.

  10. Flag Waver says:

    Dear Member of the Armed Resistance…

    OOOHHHH shaking in my undies.

    You sound like you need professional help and if your wife ran with your kids, it’s probably because you’re such a nut case.

    I suppose you think it’s “constitutional” to beat your wife/children or God forbid rape them.

    Do America a favor and move to N. Korea or even better, volunteer to walk along the sides of the roads in Iraq and look for IEDs. This way no worthy soldier will get hurt.

    God Bless America, but you can go straight to hell.

  11. underwatch says:

    Dear Flag Waver,

    Thanks for taking the time to comment on our Children of the Underground leaders page.

    Parental kidnapping is one of the most heinous forms of domestic or family violence. In these and protective parent situations, the parental kidnapper or protective parent solely decides custody and disregards the court orders issued by family law court judges as well as Child Protective Services and recommendations by licensed child psychiatrists and psychologists.

    One of the biggest failures of our criminal justice system since the ’80s was the failure to prosecute third party protective parent conspirators like Faye Yager. For that reason, just like the divorce industry, it created a protective parent industry of family law professionals hoping to profit every time a mother goes underground kidnapping her children. Even more pathetic was that government and charitable money that could have better been used to assist real victims of family violence and child abuse were used to defend and hide these parental kidnappers.

    There is nothing constitutional about the protective parent cause. Luckily, the number of underground cases has significantly declined in recent years due to the prosecution of several cases that resulted in prison terms and large restitution fines against the underground parent by the courts. In addition, many of these convicted underground moms have supervised or no visitation with their children after the are caught.

    Flagwaver, I hope you further enjoy “shaking in your undies” after reading this post. If you can present a better argument for the protective parent cause other than let’s see it!

    The Editor
    The Children of the Underground Watch

  12. underwatch says:

    Dear Flag Waver,

    It would be nice to hear a response from you!

    The Editor
    The Children of the Underground Watch

  13. mkg4583 says:

    You should include anyone also associated with the Center for Judicial Excellence and Kathleen Russell. Although the PBS docu-bullshit-drama was aired as being a pretentious lie, a new version of the Underground Film is airing as Family Court Crisis, under the direction of Meera Fox, et. al, above.

    http://centerforjudicialexcellence.org/

  14. Meghan Flanagan says:

    I am a journalism major and I am writing a research paper on Faye Yager. I have found lots of information but I would love to get a primary interview from Faye Yager herself (if at all possible) or someone who has worked with her or come in contact with her at all (positive or negative). If anyone knows Yager’s email or a way of contacting her or is willing to be interviewed themselves (by email or phone or any way that is convenient for you) please let me know!

  15. G.rama says:

    Thank God that there are people in the world that put the “best interests” of children before the interest of angry, controlling parents. The Underground is an unfortunate necessity when courts fail both kids and their protective parent. Gambling with the lives of children has too often wound up in their continued victimization and sometimes fatal injury. American justice instructs us that it is better that some of the guilty go free in order to insure that no innocent are convicted. Our children have committed no crimes… shouldn’t we afford them (at least) the same protection as criminals?

    • underwatch says:

      G.rama,

      As I mentioned to Teresa, what if it were your child or grandchild? Their father or stepmother interviewed them, took them to someone with the qualifications of Faye Yager (interior designer) and then went underground. They said the system did’t protect the children. Also, if that were the case then every family member of yours must be an abuser and maybe throw in some allegations of satanic ritual abuse by G.rama.

      Lets work toward improving our nation’s child abuse professionals with education and training rather then support people like Faye Yager.

      The Editor

  16. Teresa says:

    My guess is the authors of this website, which by the way is trying to STOP Faye Yager not help her, are the very child molesters she is trying to protect these children from. There is a special place in hell for all of you child molesters. I know that not all parental abductions are fleeing abusers but I would not hesitate one instant to help the ones who are. If in doubt, protect the children from you monsters!

    • underwatch says:

      Hi Teresa,

      Why would you assume this? Take a look at the Tonya Craft case! If some hysterical parents can interview their own children like Faye Yager did, and implant false memories – then why wouldn’y a narcisstic custodial embattled mom?

      If you have a child or grandchild that a Faye Yager supporter helped conceal without any evidence, how would you feel?

      The Editor
      The Children of the Underground Watch

      • Sherri O'Neal says:

        I am tired of hearing people talk about “evidence” when my FOUR children (16, 12, 10, 8) all disclosed child abuse to a GAL who testified on our behalf, only to have a judge grant my ex sole custody! I already had custody, but moved out of state; he contested and won. Within six weeks of said custody, he “stabbed” (as stated by my son) my 10 yr old with a pencil numerous times in the chest, layed on him so that he couldn’t breathe, and kicked him in the stomach; he made both boys 12 & 10 lose total control of their bladders, soaking their pants during a “disciplinary” session. How is slamming a child into a wall by their throat, suspending them in the air, acceptable discipline in Harrisonville, Missouri? (suburb of KC) A social worker visits them each month to keep dad on his toes and limit the abuse. My ex made me wet myself at least four times, it’s a degrading & horrifying experience. You literally think that you are going to die. My ex broke my ribs, blackend my eyes, gave me a concussion, kicked me in the stomach, broke my veins, attacked me when I was 7 months pregnant, hit me so hard that I had ringing in my left ear for several weeks, and even launched basketballs and full coke cans at my face, etc. Yet, the court worships him. I haven’t seen my children in one year, because he’s now denying me visitation. Now who’s narcisstic?

  17. Holly says:

    I have no position on the Underground, but I’m curious why you label so many of these women as “feminists” or “radical feminists” as a perjorative term?

    • underwatch says:

      Hi Holly,

      In our experience following the Underground and their supporters, there are those that support their cause then those extremists like Faye Yager, Amy Neustein, Connie Valentine and Meera Fox. Their cause is more important than the facts and circumstances in a case. As we saw with the Tonya Craft case, their were extremists like Wendy Murphy.

      The Editor

    • Henry Plantagenet says:

      That and the Scientology crack, and the business about the guy who needs a haircut….The hills are alive with the sound of axes grinding.

  18. [...] yet it should be. A victim can not fight without having the necessary training and tools in order to survive,”  Murphy-Milano [...]

  19. underwatch says:

    Dear Whistle Blower,

    First of all, you it sounds like you are or believe you are an Adult Survivor of child abuse. What is known about Faye Yager is that she preyed on not only the hysterical, narcissistic and custodial-embattled mother’s of the ’80s and ’90s but on the short comings of our Child Protective Services system that was still in it’s infancy stages having been created with the Mondale Act of 1974. As we’ve seen with the recent Tonya Craft Case, it created what Ms. Craft called a perfect storm with some overzealous and under qualified child abuse professionals, most with their own personal cause or financial agenda enabling Faye Yager and these Underground Moms.

    But Whistle Blower, this is the Year 2010. Our country’s Child Protective Services system has had 36 years to grow and mature and while not perfect we also saw in the Tonya Craft case, it’s certainly leaps and bounds better than the ’80s and ’90s which I assume is the time period in your case. Furthermore, our child abuse professionals which includes child psychiatrists and psychologists, social scientists and attorneys have had this time to gain knowledge about child abuse, false allegations of child abuse, interviewing techniques of child abuse victims and parental kidnapping.

    Whistle Blower, what that means is that in the Year 2010, there is no longer a need or a toleration in America for a Faye Yager-like Children of the Underground or protective parent cause in which you have a person like Faye that has no formal training or advanced degree interviewing alleged child abuses victims then sending them into an underground network of safe houses. Also note that Faye and her Underground collected the personal assets of the underground mothers. If you visited Faye’s B and B in Fayetteville, North Carolina you might sit on the couch of a former underground mom.

    See below for other comments:

    – snip –

    Dear Editor,

    It is obvious you have never been molested as an innocent child, or have ever come to know the fear, pain, and betrayal, or the life long emotional scars it leaves, not to mention in some cases repeats itself. So under those circumstances as a parent, sacrificing whether or not you have a successful career, or your child may or may not go to college or have a normal life??? So what are you proposing the child would have a normal life with a parent who is a molester? A normal life is based on love and safety, with or without a “successful career or college degree”. And I’d support the physical protection and emotional safety of being on the run with some one who loves me, than over your perspective of what is normal for a child being sexually, physically, or emotionally abused.

    – from The Editor: The problem with these underground cases is that most of the moms went underground without any real evidence that their children were being abused. In addition, most of these underground moms held a unreasonable or wrongful belief that their children were being abused and did not exhaust their legal remedies — they just kidnapped their children. This is my perspective! Another poster asked me what was my definition of an overzealous or radical child abuse professional or advocate. Your unreasonable belief that my perspective that child abuse was normal for a child is a perfect example of radical or extremist belief.

    And one of the reasons why children are not getting the protection that they need from the judicial system, is probably because the heads that have the college degrees, and successful careers, are making the choices not to protection our children, or at the very least, not changing the laws to do so.

    So now, what does that say about you? Well in my opinion, you’re doing a whole lot of talking and not saying very much at all. You’re responses are basically all redundant, demonstrating you are not a very advance thinker, or for that matter not even very intelligent, if this website is the only solution you can come up with to help or try and ensure the safety and protection of children. If you really knew what time it was, you would be praising, and kissing the ground Faye Yager walks on, as well as all “the leaders” that followed in her footsteps, supporting altruistic and bravest efforts. What are you doing, but staying all nice and safe behind your “let us all poo-poo Faye Yager” website? People like you, who talk, talk, talk, and say nothing useful that is genuinely helpful to those in trouble, are basically verbally masturbating in my opinion. So until you have the experiences of being innocently tortured by someone, and probably one of the only people in your life as a child that you depend on – SHUT UP… Because you never know, (and I would never wish this on anyone, not even you), you may come back in your next life time as a child on the run (that’s if your lucky) who’s been robbed of their innocence.

    From the Editor: Whistle Blower, the purpose of our website is to recover kidnapped children, reunite them with their victim parents and to expose the overzealous or extremist child abuse professionals that prey on these underground parental kidnapping cases. If you proclaim yourself to be an advanced thinker then why would you accuse me of verbally masturbating and tell me to Shut Up? After hearing these words, one might possibly question the allegations in your situation.

    If you haven’t gotten it by now, the majority of people coming across your site, aren’t in agreement with you. And that would be for a very good reason – It’s apparent you have no clue what you’re talking about. You may want to rethink your perspective, because it doesn’t seem your “college education” has not gotten your compassion or understanding very far in the true reality of this lifelong trauma. A college degree, and successful career is attainable even for these children – so don’t prejudge, or presume.

    – from The Editor: Whistle Blower, as an advanced thinker, how could you possibly conclude that the majority of people coming across my site aren’t in agreement with me? Isn’t you that is prejudging and presuming?

    Why don’t you put more of your energies in trying to change the law if you care so much that these children are subject to having to go underground, because you’re not doing so good in trying to change the opinions of those relying on, or supporting the underground necessity – And yes, REVERING what the Faye Yager’s of the world, because she is actually doing something about it and saving lives. While you just sit behind you whimpy website… Going off, and probably getting off, on your own “blab, blab, splish, splash”.
    Get another hobby.

    – from The Editor: Our website The Children of The Underground Watch focuses on advocating for enforcing the parental kidnapping laws. We would like to see the reunification of all parentally kidnapped children, even those adult survivors. Finally, Whistle Blower, there is compelling evidence that suggests that false allegations occurred in many of these prior cases. With untrained individuals like Faye and sone parents asking young children leading questions many fathers were falsely accused. What is your solution for these families?

    • angel says:

      whistle blower really got under your skin. hard to retaliate against someone who is right. I’ll glady go sit on a sofa given to her in exchange for the safety of my child. the overwhelming evidence lies in the testimonies of children who are grown and capable thinkers about abuse that did occur and who unfortunately were not protected. there was no “real evidence” in those cases. just another crazy mom. why do you think someone goes to that extreme to begin with? because this theory you have that people should rally and get things changed has not worked. I suppose the underground railroad was incorrect as well. if your going to be independent in your thought, please make it intelligently based….many slaves gave up and any and everything(which wasn’t always much) to afford themselves safety from slavery. it was costly and dangerous. if we could go back in time wih this technology surely their would be someone such as yourself advertising ill concocted notions that it was wrong and spewing silly bone head talk about sofa’s and such. good god. haven’t you experienced enlightenment yet? my sources point to no.

  20. martha says:

    looking for a friend mary ellen russell in her early 60’s about now she went under ground back in the 80’s with her daughter elizabeth mary ellen suspected that elizabeth was being molested by her father. . . Mel (her nickname)crossed my mind today never knew what happen to them they were from ventura co California when the father found out they were being hidden in Washington state she was arrested and charged with kitnapping crossing state line she was returned to Ventura Co. Mary Ellen was arraigned and let out on bail she stayed with me as she awaited trial eventually all charges were dropped but she lost custody of elizabeth just browsing I found your site
    thank you martha

  21. "neutral" survivor says:

    I say “neutral” because I will not engage in the mud-slinging that is occuring here, and therefore this is not directed at any one person.

    When I was 3, my siblings were 6,8, and 10, my mother left my father because he had been abusing her and us. She took us with her to get us away from him. This is NOT a made up memory, it is a matter of fact, and a matter of court record. The allegations of abuse of wife and children were never denied, my father PROUDLY boasted in court about how he had to keep his wife and children “in line”, by letting us all “have it” once in a while. My siblings and I have more than just emotional scars, we have physical scars. A judge, due to the OVERWHELMING evidence against my father, ruled him an unfit father and called him an animal, this is all documented. Then, my abusive father, got a scuzzy lawyer and a scuzzy judge to overturn the decision, by claiming that my mother “kidnapped” us kids. They centered on how “kidnapping” was a FEDERAL offense, however, the abuse all of us endured at his hand was not even deemed a crime, the scuzzy judge stated “It is ALWAYS in the best interest of the child to be with their father, no matter what he has done”; and us kids were handed back to the father that had been molesting and beating us. My father thanked my mother for trying to protect us by beating her, LITERALLY to death, and the courts let him off saying that us children needed our father. All of our childhoods were filled with multiple forms of abuse(physical, sexual, mental, and emotional). MAYBE, just maybe, if my mother had something like an underground railroad, my father would not have been able to kill her, and he would not have been able to continue to abuse us until we got out of the house.

    It is NOT better to be with a father like that, And, perhaps IF we would have been taken from him when we SHOULD have been, when I was 3; then just maybe we would not have all been GLAD when he died, but sad that it was as an old man. He murdered my mother abused all his children (including the ones he had by antoher woman), and he was allowed to live a long life.

    The most HEINOUS crime, is the crime, ANY crime that is perpetrated against a child.

    • posh says:

      You are a sad man – editor of this site! I have read through your site and could not help but note how you talk about victims of real abuse to be helped rather than those who make things up, yet whenever a post such as “neutral” here comes up, you never reply! You are not at all an unbiased party – you are part of the problem children have. You are the problem. Anyone who is complicit in the abuse of a child is as guilty as the abuser! You will receive your punishment!

      Neutral – I wept, reading your post! I am the mother you speak of, and you and your siblings are my 2 sons right now! We are in England by the way, and the story is the same! I was told openly in court that my 2 sons will be handed over to my ex-husband who has sexually molested our sons!

      What do you have to say to that Editor???? I guess in your world real victims of abuse do not exist – Heck even the paedophiles tell us the children love it! You are sick to even try to take stand against children by pretending that reunification is paramount to physical, emotional and sexual safety for a child.

      You are one hell of a sick bastard! I am very sure you were abused, did not get any help and has now turned into an abuser yourself! Dedicating your life to smearing people who try to do their best in the now until the law changes in the future if that ever happens is cheap, sad and lonely!

      Come out with your real identity and agenda – YOU ARE A CHILD ABUSER, advocating for the obliteration of the final resort for the abuse victim – the underground!

      I am awaiting trial to determine my son’s fate! I know the truth, I know my son never lied against his father, I certainly never coached my son – never had the time, motivation nor the opportunity yet that is his only defence and the courts GAL is driving that like a steam engine, yet with no evidence whatsoever. The overwhelming evidence from the Police, various Social Workers etc have been ignored – how do you call that justice? How do you even label that the best interest of the child????

      • underwatch says:

        Posh,

        We have had a number of Underground Moms on our site. What continues to mystify me is how you can be convinced your children were abused? What professional credentials do you have for being certain your children were harmed by your former spouse. I’ve never seen one case where an Underground Mom had clear and convincing evidence. In the midst of a custodial-embattled divorce, there are allegations and the mom will usually enlarge her story during a trial with new allegations. Some will use controversial artwork of the child as evidence. But in the end, why didn’t the mom get her children into therapy with a child psychiatrist, participate in a evaluation or a CPS Investigation. Instead of doing every possible thing including using many of the numerous Child Protection Non-Profit Resources — the Underground Mom just leaves, kidnapping her children. She does not exhaust her legal remedies or notify law enforcement or the courts where she and the children are.

        I also don’t understand that you initially married your husband, shared vows, took his last name, had children, divorced him — then woke up one morning and are now trying to tell us that your claim that he abused his children is not out of anger and revenge. Furthermore, despite your hatred toward your former spouse, you still use his last name.

        I know many left behind victim parent’s struggle with the question, does the underground mom truly believe her former spouse abused his children? Also, is this a reasonable belief? Or is she saying it as a narcissist and an excuse for committing this crime.

        So Posh, for the benefit of your children and to show some remorse to the man you once told you loved him — Please tell us why you think your beliefs are reasonable?

  22. Zoninersmor says:

    Hi, i’m Zoninersmor advanced joke, extraordinary site.

  23. Deb says:

    My daughter was kidnapped in 1980 by my mother. She was 4 years old and I didnt see her again for 26 years. In 1986 I tracked my mother to Florida. The police blew the lead and she escaped and was last known to be in Georgia. After that she fell off the map. The FBI told me they believed she had been helped by Faye Yeager. Faye Yeager cost me what was left of my daughters childhood. I want Faye Yeager to know that I never abused or neglected my child but my mother abused and neglected me. She also abandoned me to relatives and then finally took me back when I was four from the only childhood i ever knew with my grandmother. She was emotionally and physically abusive to me. My mother destroyed my life. I read somewhere that Faye Yeager could tell by “looking in someones eyes” if they were telling her the truth. Maybe Faye should have looked in my eyes before she took the word of my mentally unstable mother and helped destroy my daughters life and mine. When my mother was finally brought back after 26 years she received 3 years of probation and my daughter has been so brainwashed that she wants nothing to do with me or her father or anyone here. If Faye Yeager is your hero you better look elsewhere and anyone out there doing her work remember that people like my mother believe their own lies because they are mentally unstable and there is someone else involved who isnt getting a chance to be heard. I mourn every day for the loss of my daughter. My life was devastated and my daughter was raised by someone I wouldnt trust to raise an animal.

    • forthelost says:

      I believe I remember your case. Sadly this is an all too common outcome.

    • disgusted by this site says:

      That is awful if true. I have yet to hear an abuser admit it, usually they become the victim in the story. I see your story is a lot of me me, my and I . I’d be willing to bet your mother speaks more about the child in question. I dont know you or your mom, but based your story. I don’t believe you. Sounds like the courts and your own daughter didn’t ei ther. Its all about poor you. My abusive ex was the same way. So was Casey Anthony for that matter. Maybe her mom should have took off with cCaylee.

  24. Sherri O'Neal says:

    I appreciate your enthusiasm with regards to “Our country’s Child Protective Services system has had 36 years to grow and mature.” However, it’s simply not realistic. For instance, a mother in KCMO was investigated by social workers, up until the ultimate tortuous starvation and scalding to death of two of her triplets; the investigators had “formal training or advanced degree(s) interviewing alleged child abuses” and yet that had little or no meaning in saving these little boys from a horrible fate. In fact, MO lost a Federal grant ($3 million?)due to their FAILURE at protecting children on or about 2003. As far as, “in which you have a person like Faye that has no formal training” Ms. Yager has firsthand personal experience, with her own daughter. You cannot negate personal experience! Here is the link to the triplets story. http://lubbockonline.com/stories/102399/nat_1023990113.shtml

    UPDATE: My violent ex has custody and is still denying me visitation; he won’t even let me telephone my children. The child protective services has an open case against him; but, it means very little. I was critized by the state for moving out of state; thus, prompting me to lose custody to begin with; and they actually had the audacity to ask me, “What is it that you want US to do?” I replied, “I want you to protect my children! That’s your job.”

  25. Anonymous says:

    I will tell you my story. My abusive ex, not only has paid his way out of trouble, but has paid attorneys to do what is called a “change of language” in orders, in order to legally steal our children. He has played the courts in two states. Went to a state, against FEDERAL law, and obtained a “pickup” order behind my back on a FRAUDULENT ORDER out of the original custody state. I was then somehow put in the national database for custodial abduction, falsely arrested, extradited, spending three weeks in jail, all the while our CONTACT info was on court record, and he was court ordered to call the children twice a week, and never did. Not to mention, the pick up order did not say he has custody, he still does NOT have custody, by LAW I do, however, he is able to hold the children hostage, not permitting me to see them, telling me I have to pay $200 at some supervised visitation center when there is no such order that says anything. I do not have no contact order, he sends back packages I mail the children. Attorney’s have bled me drive with their lose tongues, and lies. There is a perversion of justice going on in this system to such an extent that something needs to change. Women and children are being WAYLAID of their civil rights, its like its going back to when we had none. This site is extremely subjective and has no clue what the hell its talking about when it comes to people fighting for the rights of others. These men and women on the benches are unrighteous, acting as god, well there is only ONE GOD, and our children HAVE CIVIL RIGHTS from the day they are born. CPS, DFS, DHS are all a joke. What is going on is slave trade, human trafficking in the system, there is no mercy justice and faith. I was not on the run and this happened to me, I cannot imagine what women (and men, there are men who are abused) and children who are on the run are going through. This is a national crisis, and we are responsible for our neighbors and what is happening to them.

    • underwatch says:

      Dear Anonymous, it sounds like a move away or a Family Abduction was a crime committed by both you and your former spouse. When you decided to have children in America, your legal rights as a parent now fell under the jurisdiction of the county legal system of your children’s residence. You can’t just pick up and leave, even if you had a very good reason without an agreement with your spouse, former spouse or other parent of your child(ren). It sounds like both of you broke the law and you are now crying victim. When your children were born and/or you got married, these were very happy days of your life. However, now you and your Ex are at war and using the children as pawns. It sounds like the best course of action is to agree to a co-parent for the best interests of your children, swallow your pride and move on with your life…that’s the real National Crisis.

      • posh says:

        Underwatch – You are a child abuser deluded under the guise of parental alienation – did she move state or did her husband? If a relationship is abusive, should you stay because the abuser was able to pretend and appear to be nice in the earlier stages of your relationship/marriage? I charge you to respond to the real victims of abuse on this website. See Neutral’s post – respond to him/her if you are at all human – which I know you are not.

  26. Anonymous says:

    btw, I was never CHARGED or ARRAIGNED!

  27. Anonymous says:

    I am sorry, but you have no clue what your talking about. Clearly, if I committed a crime I would have been punished. Unfortunately, the true criminals are not. Here is why, you have men who have set themselves up as “god” & have no clue what is going on. Good luck to you on your future judgments. My children and I are the reason the Messiah came, its the same system, 2000 years later, bribes, no mercy, no justice and no faith. NO spirit of the law. For every law passed, there are 3 more, so you stay in the system. Every motion filed is a bond, do you know that? You might want to do your research to understand what is truly happen on the slave market called the court.

  28. Anonymous says:

    under the constitution, we are free, its supposed to be self-government, not elite rule, or have you forgotten that. Its called bondage, what we were set free from, is back. Wake up

    • The Editor says:

      Anonymous, with all this talk about slave trade and bondage, some including the child custody professionals would recommend you seek therapy or group therapy. You need to present yourself to the courts as a good enough parent but most importantly be emotionally available for your children.

      • posh says:

        I said it – you have no capacity to reason outside of your one-track sick mind! I think you were seriously and severely abused as a child. You got no help and got so very corrupted, sick and twisted. So because she chooses to use an analogue to describes how she feels about her predicament, an analogy like slavery which she feels people who have a slight enough knowledge of your country’s history will understand, she needs therapy???? What exactly have you diagnosed her with – Psychiatrist without qualifications????

        You are the one that needs therapy as you are obviously so sick, that you do not realise how sick you are.

  29. Vickie Minter says:

    i know faye y. and was hid for over 20 yrs. my son who is now grown wanted to see his father’s side of the family. we bought a house near by and now, once again have problems with people trying to break in our house and/ or people outside our house making noises for unknown reasons. several police reports have been made. we have had to get a permanent restraint on his “dad” and his “sister”. we don’t get much sleep right now because we are trying to catch the “ones” that are making noises and climbing on our roof at night. “they have left evidence” by tearing up the shingles on the roof. i went throught the underground and thank god for it. faye y. in my opinion is a beautiful lady and very strong. no, she may not be perfect but i think that she is smarter than a lot of our court systems, knows what is happening to our children, and is smarter than the average bear…..ha ha…..i respect her for what she does. oh and by the way—our case remains unsolved. but, i kept my child safe…thanks to the underground….

    • underwatch says:

      Vickie, let’s say your son gets married, has a child and your daughter-in-law goes underground with your grandchild. She kidnaps your grandchild and your son has no opportunity to bring the matter to any Family Court. She has decided not to trust your son because of his past. Instead, she goes into the new protective parent underground. 20 years later, she and your now grown grandchild move back to your community. How would you and your son feel if that happened?

      The Editor

      • vbm says:

        I am not saying that the underground has all the answers. I have my x-husbands family that were very tramatized and did not see my son for years. His grandmother on this fathers side died wanting to see him..This hurts me but, I had to do what I had to do to protect him when he was a child…My son is married but has schizophrenia…he will probably never have a child. So don’t worry…I will miss out on having a grandchild. We are not winner’s for leaving –just simply doing what we have to do. Is that hard to understand? There were over 20 children involved in our case….not to mention the name of a murdered man…..What would you have done? Let him go for a visit.

      • posh says:

        You are sick, sick, sick!!! How can you compare taking a child away from a man who has done nothing wrong to taking a child away from a monster who is having violent sex with him or her and beating the living daylight out of the poor child????

        You are soooo sick!!

      • Sunshine says:

        First of all, a mother cannot “kidnap” her own child; it is impossible, read Webster’s and use some common sense. Secondly, why is it that our society excuses violence and sexual molestation from someone’s “past” to begin with? As far as, “How would you and your son feel if that happened?” Let’s stop focusing on how the adults “FEEL” and focus on how the children feel when they are being kicked in the ribs, choked til they can’t breathe, starved for years, and being raped. Why don’t we focus on the parent who doesn’t have a “past” and stop granting custody to child molesters and abusers. DUH…

      • underwatch says:

        Sunshine,

        A mother can kidnap her own child. It’s called a Family Abduction or Parental Kidnapping and it’s a Felony is almost every state. Many parental kidnappers have been sent to prison for this crime.

        The Editor

  30. k says:

    I need to get out of this fucked up mess with two kied can anyone help me before i die????

  31. k says:

    Can anyone help me before me and my two kids are dead???

  32. Nicole Magincalda says:

    I am a mother of a little boy who is going on 3 yrs of age my son lives in Sparks, Nevada and just last year my ex recived (Full Custody) Of our son. My ex reqrested (Soul Custody) and had no grounds to ask for such a thing. My ex was arrested in 2009 on Easter Sunday for battery agaist me someone reported to the cops as we were fighting and he attempted to push me down the stairs of are second floor apartment and over the railing. I dropped the charges on my ex for the battery thing as he did not hit me!. Two months later my ex hit me and blooied my nose we were at that time going to cousling with a cousler through Social Services. He had me so scared i did not call the cops after the battery thing when he blooied my nose. Now he has my son he is in Nevada and i reside in California my ex has two other children his oldest (James) and younger (Joey) and ours (John). My son will be 3 in January of this year 2011. and my ex has not started potty training him. Also he is sleeping him in a playpen with a borken mattress. Both my ex and my oldest stepson James have problems with abuse i am greatly concerned about my child. I need help if you can help me!. My ex has lied to the courts his family is aware of what is going on and will not report it to the athorites ”Please” help. Nicole Magincalda

  33. -Anonymous- says:

    I don’t know how I feel about this site. I was raised to believe that you do what’s best for your children… If that means their father really is abusing them then you get out of there, even if the judicial system ruled against that. I’m not saying that this isn’t always the case, and some parents will take advantage of this.
    I can, however, tell you that the people who you may have to deal with in the underground system aren’t all people to be praised. I’ve never met Faye, and if her real intentions are to help children, then I have nothing negative to say. I have met others though, and have been very close to them… and I can tell you that because of these individuals I don’t believe that the underground system is as perfect and praiseworthy as some people say it is. I don’t think either side of the issue is right. It doesn’t always go one way or the other.
    I’ve similarly tried to escape my father, but within the legal system. I can tell you that it isn’t easy, they can make it exceptionally hard. Especially when you’re fighting against someone with money and resources while you have none. So I can understand someone’s fear and anxiety to leave – I want that for my siblings since they’re both still under age. As a matter of fact, I’m sure if you knew my father, then some people may be clearly shocked by which side of the issue he’s playing on considering the reputation he’s made for himself otherwise.

    • t4ffan says:

      Yeah and if your “best” is absconding with your children and denying the father the right to be with his children then you deserve whatever it is that you get.

      • posh says:

        t4ffan,

        What a pathetic response. I didn’t hear anonymous complaining about deserving or not deserving what she got in the underground, she merely made a statement of fact that both systems are flawed!

        What exactly do you mean by denying the father the right to be with his children???? It should be denying a child the right to have a meaningful relationship with his/her parent. In either case, semantics being important, abusing your child i.e. having sex with a child, physically abusing a child or emotionally harming a child do not equate being with a child. If in your world you endorse that sort of a thing, then you are sick!

      • underwatch says:

        Posh,

        We have been following these cases for 20 years. Where’s your evidence? Why doesn’t the court evaluator agree with your position? There are an number of cases in the media where custodial embattled moms are not able to co-parent. They have to keep escalating parenting and custody issues. Sometimes the husband remarried. Other times the mother believes joint custody is an insult and some mothers simply don’t want to share. With all the money and time spent going to court, wouldn’t the time be better spent parenting your children?

        There are some excellent resources on the Internet on co-parenting. In these new times where the courts favor joint custody over maternal custody, they are worth the time reviewing.

        The Editor

  34. vbm says:

    i liked your comment. yes, their are some flaws in the underground—however, it is better to deal with flaws sometimes than have your child protected than let that child grow up in it. i liked your response though. i left with my son for over 20 yrs. then, he decided if he wanted to be involved with certain people. our case has never been resolved—-noone ever spent time in jail. he was about 3 or 4 when i found out. he was hospitalized at least twice before the age of 5 with private pshicatric tx. today, he is 29 and has schizophrenia. what is so sad is that our society and the government involved never, ever, tried to resolve the issue; not to mention that their was over 20plus other children involved and at least one murder………my son is safe, but scarred forever. it has been a long journey, but i will always be grateful for the underground……

  35. Brenda Gonzalez says:

    Please someone help us my sister is raising her grandson and his biological dad has visitation rights and has sexually violated him and the system will not change their order of visitation. My sisters’ daughter passed away last December so is not here to testify of the abuse she encountered when married to this monster. The GAL is a flipping joke..My sister has NO money for an attorney is desperate to save her grandson from his own Dad. My nephew has also talked about sucide if he has to continue visiting his Dad.. My nephew is mentally challenged since birth and until his Mother died his Dad wanted nothing to do with him…PLEASE HELP SAVE HIM!!

  36. Ann Moscarell says:

    I wish i knew how to help my daughter she is being wipped with a belt accross her legs. Both the step parent and parent admitted this to cps. Childrens services says they counciled the parent and step parent not to hit her with objects as this is illegal. BUT BECAUSE MY CHILD DID NOT HAVE BROKEN BONES the report was unsubstianted in wi.
    The last thing my child told me is that a rag was held in her mouth…. and it hurt her mouth. I tried to get a protective order for my child and failed . What now? I dont have custody of her.. I feel powerless.

  37. michelle says:

    the system is so screwed up where im at…my little girl told me her dad did in 2009 so we leave and now he is getting custody bc they dont believe her and has been taken from me and family and i and her therapist believe her, but i cant afford lawyer and i fear for her life bc it will soon be to where she will fear herself. sshe is only 5…please help me ….but who will no1 because of how the world is today..

  38. rosey says:

    it only didnt effect her but me too. i went thru alot of things due to it and now am desperate and gonna handle it myself if i have to somehow

  39. Carrie says:

    I want top help these families in any way but don’t know how. Call me please. 479-926-2639

  40. desperate dad says:

    You people need some NEW VILLAINS! It may surprise you to know that not only is Faye Yager NOT helping children–she is kicking out abused children and their protective parents after offering false hope to these innocent victims! How old is this blog? You people have no idea what you’re talking about and you should update the people on your “bad guy” list, because they have turned completely around…you want to know about THE “leader of the Underground” ask me–she ain’t no leader and there is no underground, just homeless children who have already suffered unspeakable torture and depredation.

  41. underwatch says:

    Desperate, it sounds like you have first hand knowledge of the Underground. We noticed that you used the term “protective parents”. Can you define that term for us?

    The Editor

  42. desperate dad says:

    Dear Editor. I have never found the underground, but I have found Faye Yager. Not 3 weeks ago she was hugging me in a drunken haze, telling me that she loved me and on Saturday last she stole all of my worldly belongings. After working for her at the Inn at Brevard not only did she NOT pay me for my work, she stole everything that we owned. Even my children’s WI and games! Oh I know Faye and her one and only concern is MONEY. Ask anyone in town who’s had dealings with her and the horror stories come pouring out. Yager’s scam is to lure parents into her lair at the Inn, work them to death, kick them out unexpectedly and steal their possessions. Every word out of her mind is a lie. I was within earshot of her for days at a time and she doesn’t talk to parents like I thought she would. My kids will always hate her. So will I. There’s a special place in Hell for people like her and I, for one, hope she finds that place sooner rather than later as do all of her employees and most of her guests. And I will not be engaging in a debate on the semantics of protective parenting. Susan Smith was not a protective parent. She killed her kids in cold blood. It happens. Sometimes kids have to be protected from an abusive parent or sibling. Sometimes the courts get it wrong and allow killers and abusers to go free and give innocent kids to them. I wish Faye had been a heroic figure instead of a greedy, drunken snob and common criminal…but that’s all that you’ll find in her.

    You believe in an “underground”? I think it’s a myth, myself…

    • underwatch says:

      Hi Desperate,

      Thank you for sharing your first hand comments about Faye Yager’s character. In the past two decades, there have been only a few individuals to speak out against her. Do you know why?

      We have read about her beliefs in widespread satanic ritual abuse. Can you provide any additional insight about this?

      When you worked with her, did you ever suspect she is still involved in the Underground? Did mothers ever show up with their out of state children that might have been on the run?

      Did Yager ever travel overseas to visit families that might be underground? If so, what countries?

      The Editor

    • Sunshine says:

      I would think that if someone really “stole” all of your worldly belongings that the police would have filed charges against her. I am sure that there is more to the story. As far as, “I was within earshot of her for days at a time and she doesn’t talk to parents like I thought she would,” apparently, you were not present when she chatted with me. Ms. Yager was extremely professional and offered all sorts of legal remedies to my situation. She was quite alert and not at all in a “drunken haze.”

      • underwatch says:

        Sunshine,

        Someone is coming forward with an allegation and you are questioning the validity of it. When custodial-embattled mothers levy an allegation against a ex-husband, there are those that believe her and those that question her motives. This is why we should rely on professionals not self-appointed protective parents or unqualified individuals like Faye Yager.

        During Faye’s historic interviewing of children, it was later determined that she wasn’t qualified and children would make up stories if asked leading questions. It does’t surprise us that doesn’t have patience and empathy when interacting with children.

        The Editor

        The Editor

  43. desperate dad says:

    I suspect that no one talks about her because she is frightfully good at blackmailing desperate parents. She covers her tracks amazingly well and thinks ahead very well. Most evil people do. Yager would make a good chess player, I suspect, the only obvious disadvantage being that you can’t lie and bluff your way through a chess game in the same way that she pulls off her con games.

    she has never said anything about Satanic rituals. She is on a tangent about homeless people in Brevard, NC. She owns 150 acres of land in Cashiers, NC and a mansion in Atlanta on Shadowlawn street. And she hates homeless people–talks incessantly about the “riff-raff”. Her style of dressing is Antebellum and she appears to be under the delusion that she is like a character out of “Gone with the Wind”.

    I am unsure as to whether she is involved in the “underground”, but given the fact that she has issues with the NC Labor board and other concerns in running the Inn at Brevard, her time is spent in thinking about money, counting money and planning on how to get her hands on more money. In the last month and a half, while I was working with her at the Inn, I only heard of one phone call from a parent, where she was talking strategy. In Apartment 1A, she had a lovely girl, Tiffany, whose child had been taken into custody. Tiffany was likewise employed by Faye and given her walking papers right away. Faye even cut the TV cable to room 1A and of course, never gave her her last paycheck.

    I honestly expected to see parents show up with kids or tons of phone calls on her part, but there was nothing of the sort. Her focus is on greed and exploitation on those whom she considers below her social status while she panders to the upper crust of society.

    Faye Yager does NOT care about children! Beware of this woman–every word out of her mouth is a lie and she is always planning her next con. the people of Brevard, NC are getting pretty fed up with her and she is banned from at least 2 restaurants.

    I hope law enforcement sets her up so that she cons an agent and pays for her treachery!

    • underwatch says:

      Hi Desperate,

      Thanks for your reply. The information about her assets is interesting. I recollect hearing several litigants that had large judgments against her but couldn’t collect. There are parents that have also seen their stolen furniture in her B&B that she received when the mom went into hiding. We’ve heard about her greed before, but never imagined it to be to that degree. The fact that her B&B was concealing a child, if that is so, I hope the police charge her with parental kidnapping. Do you know where the woman was from?

      The Editor

  44. Jennifer Kufner says:

    I have no where else to turn and was wondering who can help my young children and myself. I am at a dead end. please if there is someone here who can help me please email me back at jenner21_99@yahoo.com. i will send my number.

    Thanks for all your help,

    Jennifer

  45. Grandmas Love says:

    After reading all the comments,put downs,incouragements,etc.I have a question is there any one who can help a grand parent who is not well off but does raise two grandchildren and has now for three years.There has been physical abuse ,drugs,and severe mental abuse as well as verbal abuse from the mother,and all the men she brought into these children’s lives.I went to Child protective services for help the supervisor told me there was nothing they could do unless a stranger calls and makes a complaint because Grandparents don’t have any rights.I went and spoke to two judges both said parents have the rights ,that what your doing is a gift of love .So three years later and I am a heart patient retired raising a little girl who is showing anger because the great parents pop in when they feel like it and a boy who is seven diagnosed with autisiam / Impulsive control disorder due to all the drugs,abuse,neglect from the great parents because the court system does Not Give A Damm as long as its not them having to raise them .I went for legal advice but the lawyers want 10,000.00 per child to get custody or call legal aide.There a joke as well they don’t help Grand Parents .So the question is if all these children listed on here got the help they needed to survive in this wonderful country of ours ,then why in the hell can’t grandparents get help to …..

    • Icare alot says:

      I feel your pain. Its all about the biological parents. They can rape, beat and torture their children and still the system puts them right back in the home for it to be done all over again. There is no help for people such as you and I. We have to do the best we can and lift each other up in prayer and have faith that God will intervene.

  46. Anonymous says:

    This underground movement is a cult like you say. I have information on one of the “leaders” and about another that is not listed but has been involved in hiding children.

    Don’t want to give my identity either. So there’s a dilemma, how to communicate and share and help one another with information?

    • underwatch says:

      Hi,

      You can email us at underwatch@aol.com. You do not have to disclose your name.

      There are searching parents out there that desperately want any leads related to the kidnapping of their children. Any tips you can anonymously provide would hopefully lead to the recovery of a child(ren) and get the case back into the courts.

      The Editor

  47. Sunshine says:

    If anyone is involved in a “cult” it is the court system. One can go before several judges; however, once one judge LIES, about the facts, in a court order you are forever doomed. Most judges, thereafter, will follow suit. I am not sure why we put them on a pedestal, Judges are biased and, often times, unprofessional, i.e., rolling their eyes as someone is testifying, etc. Your best bet is to take several non-related witnesses (to the case) in the courtroom and have some of them take notes. It is a lot more difficult to lie about the facts when numerous witnesses are present!

  48. Icare alot says:

    Unless you are/have faced handing a child over to their abuser, dont comment. There are times when decisions have to be made in protecting a child. True some of these decisions are not morally right, but neither is abusing a child. And no two wrongs dont make a right. However, protecting an innocent child is whats right. And that’s all that matters.

  49. Sunshine says:

    To state that people who haven’t experienced “handing their child over to their abuser” shouldn’t comment is ignorant. Many people involved with the underground have not experienced this firsthand; yet they help these mothers. In fact, some don’t even have children. However, I have personally faced handing my children over to their abuser. Furthermore, I have been before judges who never made “decisions…in protecting a child.” In my experience, judges lied about the evidence, hid the truth (of abuse), and tampered with evidence. My children urinated themselves within 6 weeks of my ex-husband obtaining custody during a “disciplining” session wherein he layed across my then 10 year old son’s throat where he couldn’t breathe. He picked my other son up by the throat and slammed him up against the wall. This was all within social services acceptable means of discipline. It is ludicrous that I lost custody due to my relocation to another state. It didn’t come down to a “moral” decison, there is nothing wrong with a mommy finding work when the ex stopped child support payments for three months. It is called C-O-R-R-U-P-T-I-O-N. We had the GAL in our favor, testifying on our behalf! We had 5/7 deciding factors granting me the better parent or the famous “best interests of the child”. I agree that we need to protect innocent children. But let’s not be blind to the moral decay of our justice system.

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  51. No one says:

    Faye Yager is bitch and this is all bull shit. Fuck the Children of the Underground and fuck Yager. This is an organization that should be torn down.

    • Sunshine says:

      I am sorry that you feel that way. It is an odd thing to say without explanation. It might make more sense if you were angry with Faye; but, to hurl insults towards innocent children is implausible.

      • No one says:

        if you thing that faye is a good person then you are sick in the head and i am sorry for you

  52. Sunshine says:

    It sounds like you have had a tough time, I am sorry. I hope that you are doing better. Just know that there are people out there who truly care about you. I do. As for my personal experience with Faye, she was very professional, and offered me good sound advice. No monies were ever solicited; she spoke with me on her own free time.

  53. Brandy says:

    Editor said, “I’ve never seen one case where an Underground Mom had clear and convincing evidence.”

    I am a former “Underground Mom”, and I had *plenty* of clear and convincing evidence…from a medicolegal exam performed by a Sexual Abuse Nurse Examiner at a hospital emergency room, to an investigation performed by CPS, to an evaluation done by a court-recommended child psychologist.

    How COULD you possibly know if these cases have “clear and convincing evidence”??!! YOU are not privy to sealed court records which involve minor children. And it IS possible that the left-behind parent who is giving you information is giving you ONLY the information that makes them look innocent.

    I believe wholeheartedly that there are parents who abduct and hide children solely for the sake of harming the other parent….but I also KNOW, from personal experience, that there are parents who are left with no choice but to flee in order to protect a child from severe physical and sexual abuse.

    Generalizations and blanket assumptions are the sign of a fool.

    (And fyi…my daughter is a successful 4th year college student, with a great job, living a healthy, functional life. And she THANKS ME for protecting her from her father.)

    • underwatch says:

      Brandy,

      1. It’s interesting that you used a Sexual Abuse Nurse Examiner or a Nurse rather than a child psychiatrist / Medical Doctor. If you had so much evidence, then why did you think you had to go underground? Did you exhaust your legal remedies before going into hiding?

      2. The cases we have followed have resulted in the cases being resolved in the criminal or family court. These courts have access to the sealed court records. More importantly, you have to look at the family history of the left behind parent after the recovery.

      3. It sounds like your daughter is doing well. That is great news. It does not sound like co-parenting of an adult child is in “your” future plan. So did your former spouse end up in prison or jail? Or has he gone on to lead a very successful life, remarrying and raising a new family?

      4. Have you also moved on with your life? Will your child graduate with a huge amount of debt?

      5. Do you acknowledge that you inflicted child abuse on your child when you kidnapped her?

      6. Has your daughter had any therapy after you kidnapped her?

      7. Did you spend any time in jail or prison for your crime?

      I know you would like to think your case is different than all the others – but it sure sounds like the others. It sounds like the legal and child professionals involved in your case had evidence and believed you were the fool.

      What if you were wrong about your decision to go underground? Have you ever been open to the possibility that you may have made a really horrible mistake?

      The Editor

      • Sunshine says:

        1. Maybe she ran out of money. It is not uncommon for corrupt judges and GAL’s to perpetuate extensive court costs, so that the mother will have to file an expensive appeal, and another trial or modification. It is called CORRUPTION and GREED. Judges get kickbacks from GAL’s; as a paralegal, I heard many similar stories about probate judges. As far as which expert she went with, perhaps, they had a nurse practitioner who may see patients just as a physician. It does not negate the fact that a licensed medical professional performed the examination.
        2. To make a blanket statement that all child abuse family matters end in the abuser being prosecuted is quite naive.
        3. To infer that someone who remarries, is successful, and raises a new family, is not abusing his new wife or kids is, again, naive. I met a woman whose husband, the mayor, abused her and her children quite regularly. Abuse or battering is not above money or status.
        4. To suggest that women should permit their children to be abused merely for the sake of daddy paying for half of college expenses is ludicrous.
        5. Dictionary.com defines kidnapping as, “to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud, especially for use as a hostage or to extract ransom.” One cannot “steal” one’s own offspring. In most cases, children go willingly so there goes “by force.” Furthermore, I have yet to hear of any mother asking for ransom. Moreover, to suggest that she abused her child by preventing her from being beaten or molested is asinine. Sounds like propaganda to me. We do not live in North Korea, we live in America. In America, we have certain “inalienable rights” that grant us “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
        6. A child who was being protected from sexual molestation or child abuse does not need therapy because the mother protected her; however, she may require extensive therapy from the abuse that she incurred from her father.
        7. It is not a crime to protect your child from child abuse or sexual molestation. Perhaps, you should research the Holly Collins case. To date, she has not spent any time in jail or prisons either, and she went to court after going underground. Furthermore, I doubt that daddy did any time in jail or prison for molesting or physically abusing his daughter. They rarely do.

        As far as “legal and child professionals” believed that she was the fool, REALLY?! Many a legal and child professionals drop the ball on protecting children; this is the status quo in our society. Perhaps, you are following the wrong cases. This is a prevalent problem in America. Mothers who protect their children from child abuse or sexual molestation do not regret their decisions to go underground. That’s absurd.

    • Sunshine says:

      way to go brandy!!! you go girl!!! good for your daughter too!!

  54. Brandy says:

    Thank you very much for the supportive words, Sunshine. I was so surprised to see such a dedicated response on my behalf. Thank you!

    @Underwatch – I’m not going to argue with you point by point. You are nobody to me, or my daughter. You are someone who clearly is unable to accept or acknowledge that both scenarios occur…ie: scenarios in which a parent is taking a child out of spite, as well as scenarios in which a parent is legitimately protecting a child who needs it. Until you do, you will never truly be serving the best interests of any child.

    I will answer a few select questions, however:

    1) I was never given a *choice* as to which medical professional was going to examine my daughter. When I walked into that hospital emergency room, it was an *emergency*…and we accepted the medical care that was offered. The medical decisions as to the exam, and who would perform it, were made by the staff at the Ventura County Medical Center in Ventura, California. If you really wish to know why they do things they way they do, feel free to contact them yourself and ask.

    2) My daughter received 4 years of intensive, loving psychotherapy with a wonderful child therapist. A therapist, who was, in fact, recommended by the court and the D.A….she was also not someone I was able to “choose”. We just lucked out that she was someone who was skilled at what she does, and who also happens to care genuinely for children.

    3) I spent more time in jail for protecting my daughter (24 hours), then her bio father did for inserting himself, or a foreign object, into the body of a 19 month old baby for the purposes of sexual gratification.

    4) I know I wasn’t mistaken about the abuse…how?…because on his VERY first unsupervised visit after our return, he sexually abused my then 4 year old daughter, AGAIN. The courts immediately revoked unsupervised visits, and he was legally never allowed to be alone with her again. So, they acknowledged that he had abused her enough to make a half-assed attempt to protect her themselves…but they still never prosecuted him for what he was doing.

    Additionally, she was not his first victim.

    He later married a single mom with two tiny girls, about 2 and 3 years old at the time. So, my guess is that, my daughter was also not his last victim either, unfortunately.

    You simply sound like someone who denies that parental sexual abuse happens at all, ever. The only kind of people who believe that, are the kind of people who somehow justify an adult-child sexual relationship, believing that it is an agreed upon arrangement, and is therefore not really a crime at all.

    I know you’d like to perpetuate the idea that all cases are the same, but they are not.

    And as far as thinking that the professionals involved in my case thought I was “a fool”…you would actually be insinuating that THEY were the fools, you see, because hours after my arrest, the D.A.’s office decided NOT to press charges against me at all. It was explained to me that they acknowledged that had ANY ONE of the authorities whom I BEGGED for help 2 years earlier done their actual JOB, then I would never have been put into the position of having to go into hiding in the first place. And a few months later, the judge in the case awarded me SOLE custody of my daughter. And the court-recommended child therapist (a very respected and highly regarded child therapist in Ventura County, mind you) after initial review of the case and interview with my daughter, *always* maintained that my daughter had in fact been sexually abused by her father. So…do you really think that ALL of the professionals involved in my case were fools, too? I see…*we’re* all a bunch of idiots…and the abuser is actually the ONLY functional one among us, right? Sorry man, but that position *screams* abuser-logic to anyone actually paying attention.

    • underwatch says:

      Brandy,

      If your child is in college, your case occurred only years after the McMartin Preschool Case. In fact in a nearby county in California, there were many overzealous and uninformed child custody professionals that asked leading questions to very young children to get false disclosures. That’s why the facts don’t sound completely accurate about your case. Many protective parent mothers like yourself believed there children were abused, but the belief was not reasonable.

      Your allegations against your former spouse sound really horrible. That said, then why did you marry him? And why would another woman with 2 young children also marry him. It sounds like you have no proof but all the anger and revenge that you have against him, does not stop you making a allegation against his other children. If you are wrong, it makes you sound hysterical and your beliefs not reasonable.

      Your case occurred many years ago when a mother could allege child abuse to get sole custody. Since then, the courts and child protective services are doing a much better job.

      Unfortunately, let’s hope your daughter doesn’t arrive at the future conclusion that what you did, even if you believed it at the time was very wrong. We’ve seen that in several cases. In the end, you married this guy, and then had a child with him. Then you inflicted emotional abuse on your own child by kidnapping her. You are calling yourself a hero and a good mother — but not everyone agrees with that.

      The Editor

      • Sunshine says:

        It is interesting that you cite the McMartin Preschool case, as that is a perfect example of hundreds of investigators dropping the ball, specifically, the police, reporters, judges, social workers, therapists, nurses, and even physicians. These people were all “experts” who coerced children into making false allegations. However, I would not describe them as overzealous or uninformed. Are these not highly educated individuals? Do we not accept today’s society professionals as experts as well?

        The question of why she married this man is obviously made without understanding the abuser mentality. For instance, most abusers hide who they really. How else would they get their victims? For instance, John Wayne Gacy, a/k/a, the “Killer Clown” was a clown at children’s parties, parades, and fund raisers! He was a serial killer and rapist of boys and young men, his father was an abusive alcoholic; he buried some 26 victims under his house, in the crawl space. He was married and had two children.

        Additionally, my neighbor, once shared that her ex-brother-in-law accused his own father of molesting his children. He warned her not to permit him to be around her children, but she didn’t believe him. She exclaimed her complete and utter disbelief that this man could do such a thing, and believed his story of “toweling off the kids” after a bath. However, after observing this man with his granddaughters, I quickly became alarmed. The girls were very sexual towards him, and the parents were oblivious to the inappropriate behaviors. These were highly educated parents, who were very successful. I spoke to these teens (ages 12-16) at my house, and discussed good touch and bad touch concepts. I asked if they had any concerns, they replied, “No.” I let them know that they could always discuss such matters with their parents, me, or teachers, if such a situation ever arose, and that children are not at fault. I was brief and never suggested that I had fears about their grandpa. Within approximately 3-4 months, all four kids admitted, to their parents, that grandpa was having sex with them, in front of each other! The stepdad to two of the kids, and biological father to the other two, confronted the man via the telephone; within hours, the grandpa shot himself in the head. Again, abusers or predators hide who they really are. They have one personality for onlookers; and, another personality for children who are alone with them.

        Parents have a right to be angry towards those who hurt their children. To state otherwise, sounds like some politically correct agenda. It would be abnormal not to be angry that someone sexually molested your child or physically abused them; although, I do not denote the same from Brandy’s comments. Courts and child protective services are not doing a better job today whatsoever! Today, CPS gets monetary rewards from the federal government to take custody away from parents. A system that was exposed by since murdered Georgia Senator Nancy Schaefer http://amiablyme.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/report-of-georgia-senator-nancy-schaefer-on-cps-corruption/
        Therein lies the problem in today’s society, in the failure to protect children; the attitude that Brandy is “hysterical” or that she is not believable. If, in fact, her case occurred many years ago, wherein mothers could cry “abuse” and get sole custody, then why did she have to go into hiding? I highly doubt that this young woman thinks that her mother is wrong, as many children recall child abuse from an early age. Moreover, you should research the Holly Collins case where her children completely support their mother http://nowayoutbutone.com/?page_id=15 they actually made a documentary about her life, the first American to seek asylum in another country, and receive it!

        BRANDY, YOU ARE A HERO, AND A WONDERFUL MOTHER! NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU.

      • underwatch says:

        Sunshine,

        “It is interesting that you cite the McMartin Preschool case, as that is a perfect example of hundreds of investigators dropping the ball, specifically, the police, reporters, judges, social workers, therapists, nurses, and even physicians. These people were all “experts” who coerced children into making false allegations. However, I would not describe them as overzealous or uninformed. Are these not highly educated individuals? Do we not accept today’s society professionals as experts as well?”

        1. First of all, there is a difference between “highly educated” and a child custody professionals that are well-respected by the courts such as a child psychiatrist that is also a medical doctor, a child protective services worker with a respected reputation. Our country’s child protective services organization was only started in the ’70s with the Mondale Act. Since the overzealous “highly educated” and overzealous child custody professionals, the McMartin Case in the ’80s, the Wenatchee case in the ’90s, and the Faye Yager cases in the ’80s/’90s – our child abuse system has significantly improved. If you personally believe yourself to be a child advocate, then you should read up on Kee MacFarlane, who used Anatomical Dolls to invoke false disclosures from the children at the McMartin Preschool. Here are some links for you:

        http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/mcmartinaccount.html

        http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/macfarlanetestimony.html

        http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcmartin/victiminterviews.html

        “Parents have a right to be angry towards those who hurt their children. To state otherwise, sounds like some politically correct agenda. It would be abnormal not to be angry that someone sexually molested your child or physically abused them; although, I do not denote the same from Brandy’s comments. Courts and child protective services are not doing a better job today whatsoever! Today, CPS gets monetary rewards from the federal government to take custody away from parents. A system that was exposed by since murdered Georgia Senator Nancy Schaefer http://amiablyme.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/report-of-georgia-senator-nancy-schaefer-on-cps-corruption/

        2. Sunshine, inasmuch as you believe Child Protective Services to be corrupt, are you making the stereotype that it is all CPS Departments in the United States? Do you actually believe that? Do you think there is a better way for a country to handle child abuse? Do you think it’s appropriate to have an Interior Designer like Faye Yager call herself a child protectionist or protective parent and interview young children? If you had a grandchild and there was a child abuse allegation, would you have wanted a CPS Worker in 1974 or 2013 to handle it? Don’t you think the 2013 CPS Worker would be better qualified?

        “Therein lies the problem in today’s society, in the failure to protect children; the attitude that Brandy is “hysterical” or that she is not believable. If, in fact, her case occurred many years ago, wherein mothers could cry “abuse” and get sole custody, then why did she have to go into hiding?”

        Sunshine, you are not informed regarding the research done on the motives of a parental kidnapper. If you think a parent that kidnaps their children always had a valid reason, then take a look at the FBI’s list of Parental Kidnappers. You would have a difficult time convincing the searching parent that has not seen their child(ren) in many years that this horrible crime is ever justified. Are you that insensitive?

        http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/parent

        “I highly doubt that this young woman thinks that her mother is wrong, as many children recall child abuse from an early age. Moreover, you should research the Holly Collins case where her children completely support their mother http://nowayoutbutone.com/?page_id=15 they actually made a documentary about her life, the first American to seek asylum in another country, and receive it!”

        3. Okay, the Holly Collins Case. Now your writings sound like the myopic and young Jennifer Collins. Here are my issues with that case:

        a) Why does the Netherlands think any more than the Italian Courts in the Amanda Knox case that their legal system is better than ours in resolving the Holly Collins Custody Case? Even Cuba recently returned the children to the United States in parental kidnapping case. Sunshine, the thought of applauding the actions of the Netherlands is “Anti-American”!

        b) By the time Holly Collin’s location was discovered, she had brainwashed Jennifer Collins so much (parental alienation) that the local court wanted nothing to do with the case. I would imagine the searching father realized this, had started a new family made the difficult decision to urge the local District Attorney to drop the case. Maybe some day, Jennifer Collins or her brother will realize what their mother mother did and come forward with the truth. The truth may not come out for many years when we read about Jennifer Collins’ going underground with her child.

        c) Holly Collins should have received time in prison for what she did. Recently, Jacqueline Bontzolakes received a 18 month prison sentence for kidnapping her children abroad. Collins should have received the same punishment.

        “BRANDY, YOU ARE A HERO, AND A WONDERFUL MOTHER! NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU.”

        The loser in these cases is the children.

        – The Editor

      • dee says:

        Wow. Foud this site today and made some comments. You can believe that parental kidnapping is wrong, but you should also see that some are done to protect the child. This person clearly has undeniable proof as required from a hospital of abuse, and yet you belittle that. This mother did ALL the right things and legally and medically. This guy is clearly no prize.
        You then somehow state that since she married him therefore any future actions of abuse should be overlooked and roll with the punches? Also moving on and remarrying someone else does not prove they have changed or the new wife will not have similiar problems when his true colors come out.
        I have 2 abducted children at the moment and I have done everything right, legal; and the law is being corrupt with tons of evidence to support my claims. The courts have some crooked judges as all professions have bad apples, and crooked cops. That does not mean they all are. But my case is one of injustice and my children are kidnapped, and yes parental kidnapping is still kidnapping; and I believe the worst form of child abuse.
        Your form response is always that the peson did not do all they could do, but when they tell you they did in detail; you then defend the abuser and talk about him remarrying which simply means another eventual victim. Therapists would tend to agree.
        The world is not black and white, it is not ALWAYS and NEVER. My case is horrific with corrupt judges violating mandatory state and federal statutes and corrupt cops. Does that mean every judge and cop is corrupt? I sure feel that way, but no that really is not the case. My husband had no right to infict such permanent harm to my children he has abused, not seen in 2 years, abandoned and no support or ANY communication by his own choice. He is a male, so are you all about him?
        I do not believe parental kidnapping is right as it harms the children. But abuse is not right and harms the children as well. I myself need to figure out how to save and rescue my children without kidnapping them back; but they are also being abused. They are protected by law, but law will not enforce. What choices do I have when the clock is ticking as to if he kills them with his proven violence with a DVRO. I am the perfect poster for the system not doing its job, and deliberately in my case. Nothing hidden or elaborate, he is convicted by a court of DVRO, I have full custody; but he is getting void orders in a second state the judge knows is not allowed. He kidnaps the kids and his cop coworkers wont arrest him even though I have 5 orders saying so.
        I certainly would not want to be belittled after doing all I can and my children are being harmed because you simply love fathers no matter what they do. They are not always right, neither are Mothers.
        Lets give a little compassion that the parent is caring for the safety of the children REALLY in some of these situations, and has done all the right things; and harm continues. Decisions always need to be made to protect your childen, sometimes it is not what you want to do, but must. Please keep that in mind. It will not make anyone think less of you to say seems like you did all the ight things, didn’t wok, you made the best decision you could, but I think paental kidnapping is wrong no matter what. Much nicer, keeps your point; and really the mother doing ALL the right things had her child continously hurt doing it the legal way and the child suffers.Avoiding a child suffering is the main point, not which parent.

      • underwatch says:

        Dee,

        In this post-911 era, it’s virtually impossible for any underground mother with two kidnapped children to hide her identity. Furthermore, by keeping your children in hiding, you would be preventing them from many potential future opportunities such as scholarships, child support and potential support from your former spouse’s family.

        You say you fear for your life as well as your children. It sounds like your former spouse is in law enforcement, but do you truly believe that he is that dangerous to you and your children? What about his parents and your children’s grandparents. Are you also concerned that they would harm you and your children? Do they not deserve a relationship with their grandchildren because you believe you must be judge, jury and executioner.

        It sounds like things need to be de-escalated in your case. Isn’t it possible for you to accept joint or shared custody, co-parenting and move on with your life? It seems that despite your divorce, you need to accept responsibility for your part of the marriage, having children and take the high ground. If not, you may end up in prison like many underground moms, have supervised visitation or even more have your parental rights terminated.

        I really dislike going back to this, but it’s you that walked down the isle and married your former spouse, and then decided to have children with him. Inasmuch as you may dislike your former spouse and what he did to you, for the benefit of your children you must really re-think your present position.

        – The Editor

      • dee says:

        Dee replying to editor. You must not be reading the story. I have not taken my children. I have a court order granting ME full custody.

        YES THE COURT you love so much made the decision that he was dangerous and cannot have visitation after supervised visitation was first impossed. The COURT you love so much put a domestic violence restraining Order on him. HIS actions made CO Parenting impossible, and the court made that decision to protect the children. It is unfortunete, but not everyone can co parent; this is a simple fact. Why would you even SUGGEST to co parent when he has been tried in a court of law to be unfit and DANGEROUS to the point he is restrained BY LAW not to be near the children?

        I did not kidnap my children. The sick abusive abductor did but strangely since he is a male you are sticking up for him? Somethings wrong with this picture. How can you be against abduction and yet support this male abductor breaking the law and also violating the DVRO?

        I have no problem with grandparents though his Australian parents feel that when you separate or divorce you NEVER talk to the other spouse again, even if have children together. So do not think his parents are the right people to have my children around as they would simply help in an abduction. THAT is very disappointing, but that is who they are and their opinion well before our separation.

        Because you marry someone, does not mean that things do not happen. I do believe in marriage and helping the other person, and believe children benefit in a HEALTHY relationship with both parents. The key here is HEALTHY. You cannot just say EVERYBODY should co parent. So the abuser who places a hot iron on his child everytime he has a visit is a good thing so we can say we are co parenting? The rape of the daughter each visit is a good thing so we can say we are co parenting? It goes the same for the Mother if she is harming the child, she should not be allowed to co parent.

        The children and their safety is the issue, as well as their happiness. Co parenting is not the tell all solution. The courts would like each case to be that way, but sometimes it just can’t be. The courts clearly know this, why don’t you?

  55. Brandy says:

    Clearly, you are a master at twisting reality to suit your own agenda. You have no “facts” of my case, so how would you know if they sound accurate or not? You sound like a classic “Legend in your own mind” kind of individual, and I don’t have time to waste arguing with you. Obviously, I did now KNOW my ex was a child molester before I married him (what a stupid thing for you to even insinuate). Also, I never called myself a hero OR a good mother. See how you just make things up?

    My case certainly did NOT occur at a time in CA when a mother could simply “allege child abuse and get sole custody”. Otherwise…why would I have had to run in the first place??? My case did not even occur at a time when a parent could go to court with clear evidence and documentation and get adequate *protection* for a child, let alone sole custody. I ended up with sole custody YEARS LATER.

    When it comes to my experience, you are just wrong. Plain and simple. You know very little about it, you were not there, you do not know *any* of us. Yet…you write as though you are an expert on our personal situation, so much so that you have the nerve to come right out and imply that my daughter and I have lied about everything. Do you truly not comprehend how irrational a position that is? Really?!?!

    There ARE parents who sexually abuse children. You seem to work very hard to pretend that isn’t true. Is that because you don’t see anything wrong with it?

    • underwatch says:

      “My case certainly did NOT occur at a time in CA when a mother could simply “allege child abuse and get sole custody”.

      1. As our child custody system in America moved from “maternal custody” to “joint custody” to “co-parenting”, it sounds like the child custody professionals and judge did not believe your allegation or you did not provide the evidence they needed to give you sole custody.

      Otherwise…why would I have had to run in the first place???

      2. This is a decision you made. I recollect hearing in California that you needed to “exhaust your legal remedies” before you kidnapped your child. It doesn’t sound like you did. You should also examine the research on the motives parental kidnapper have. Could it also be that you simply were not interested in “co-parenting”?

      My case did not even occur at a time when a parent could go to court with clear evidence and documentation and get adequate *protection* for a child, let alone sole custody. I ended up with sole custody YEARS LATER.”

      3. As your child gets older, it is likely that she may want to contact her biological father. We have heard stories that after talking to the biological father, the child realizes the true motives of the parental kidnapping and cuts off contact with the parental kidnapper. There is not much research in this area.

      Brandy, I think you minimize the parental kidnapping crime you committed. Take a look at the mugshots of these parental kidnappers on the FBI Wanted List. It’s difficult to read these stories and not feel sorry for these children.

      http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/parent

      The Editor

      When it comes to my experience, you are just wrong. Plain and simple. You know very little about it, you were not there, you do not know *any* of us. Yet…you write as though you are an expert on our personal situation, so much so that you have the nerve to come right out and imply that my daughter and I have lied about everything. Do you truly not comprehend how irrational a position that is? Really?!?!

      There ARE parents who sexually abuse children. You seem to work very hard to pretend that isn’t true. Is that because you don’t see anything wrong with it?

  56. Brandy says:

    @Sunshine – Thank you, again, for such kind and supportive words. Really! They mean so much! I love reading your posts – they are SO well written and informative.

  57. Brandy says:

    Editor – You’re not reading adequately. I explained that upon my willing return to my hometown/county to FIGHT the injustice my daughter had been served up years earlier…the authorities came right out and said that they were *dropping all charges* because *had ANY ONE of the agencies I BEGGED for help in protecting my daughter from further harm at the hands of her father actually DONE THEIR JOB, then I would not have been placed in the position of having to make the decision to run in the first place. In CA, it is legal (at least it was at the time of my case) to hide a child if you feel it is your only alternative when their life is in danger (I never knew that until it was explained to me after my return). Since habitual child sexual abuse usually leads to the act of (repeated) rape..the courts acknowledged that the rape of a 19 month old BABY by a grown man is a life-threatening event (there was a recent case in the news about a horrible individual who actually “raped a baby to death”, according to the article written about it). THE COURTS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT I HAD EXHAUSTED EVERY LEGAL OPTION BEFORE I WENT INTO HIDING. Again..you simply seem to me to be a person who believes that child sexual abuse at the hands of a parent doesn’t actually happen…and the only people who would believe that are people who condone it.

    As to your statement about your belief that I minimize my “crime” in taking my daughter somewhere safe so that her bio father could not use her in sexual ways anymore….I don’t see it as a crime. Let me put it to you this way…if your kid was falling into a lion’s exhibit at the zoo…and the only way to save that kid from being ripped to shreds by the lion was to grab his/her hair to pull them back up because that’s all you could reach by the time you realized it was happening…would you call that a crime?? In a normal, everyday situation…suspending a child’s full weight by their hair would be considered terribly abusive and cruel…but put it into the context of being the ONLY way to save them from something far more horrible and life-threatening…and the act doesn’t behave like a crime anymore, does it?

    Or perhaps you…would suggest just letting the kid fall so that the lion can do whatever it pleases with them?

    My daughter was fortunate enough that our life in hiding was able to include many elements of a normal and healthy life. We were not underground with strangers…we were in hiding with either people who loved her, or on our own in a safe environment with normal daily routines, adequate nutrition, and enriching activities. That may not be the typical life in hiding…but I don’t know that..AND NEITHER DO YOU…because we are not physically witnessing the lives in hiding of other parents and their children, now are we?

    Your rhetoric is old and worn out…”hiding parents are all criminals…any time a child is said to be being abused by a parent must be a situation where authorities have made a mistake”…blah blah blah. You’ve been proven wrong over and over again when your opinions are measured against actual facts.

    I think you just like to hear yourself talk.

    • Ally says:

      Brandy do you know if Faye Yager still runs the underground or what her whereabouts are in 2013 by any chance

    • underwatch says:

      “Editor – You’re not reading adequately. I explained that upon my willing return to my hometown/county to FIGHT the injustice my daughter had been served up years earlier…the authorities came right out and said that they were *dropping all charges* because *had ANY ONE of the agencies I BEGGED for help in protecting my daughter from further harm at the hands of her father actually DONE THEIR JOB, then I would not have been placed in the position of having to make the decision to run in the first place. In CA, it is legal (at least it was at the time of my case) to hide a child if you feel it is your only alternative when their life is in danger (I never knew that until it was explained to me after my return). Since habitual child sexual abuse usually leads to the act of (repeated) rape..the courts acknowledged that the rape of a 19 month old BABY by a grown man is a life-threatening event (there was a recent case in the news about a horrible individual who actually “raped a baby to death”, according to the article written about it). THE COURTS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT I HAD EXHAUSTED EVERY LEGAL OPTION BEFORE I WENT INTO HIDING. Again..you simply seem to me to be a person who believes that child sexual abuse at the hands of a parent doesn’t actually happen…and the only people who would believe that are people who condone it.”

      1. Brandy, I believe you have it wrong. In California, you violated California Penal Code Section 278.5. See the penal code below. When you say it’s legal, I believe the answer is it’s not based on the law below. There is a “legal defense” that you are speaking of.

      If you ended up going overseas and forging a government document or U.S. Passport, then you could have also been brought up on Federal Charges. In this Post-911 era, if you engaged in government document forgery or passport forgery, there’s no legal defense.

      278.5. (a) Every person who takes, entices away, keeps, withholds,
      or conceals a child and maliciously deprives a lawful custodian of a
      right to custody, or a person of a right to visitation, shall be
      punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, a
      fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both that fine
      and imprisonment, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of
      Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years, a fine not
      exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or both that fine and
      imprisonment.
      (b) Nothing contained in this section limits the court’s contempt
      power.
      (c) A custody order obtained after the taking, enticing away,
      keeping, withholding, or concealing of a child does not constitute a
      defense to a crime charged under this section.

      “As to your statement about your belief that I minimize my “crime” in taking my daughter somewhere safe so that her bio father could not use her in sexual ways anymore….I don’t see it as a crime. Let me put it to you this way…if your kid was falling into a lion’s exhibit at the zoo…and the only way to save that kid from being ripped to shreds by the lion was to grab his/her hair to pull them back up because that’s all you could reach by the time you realized it was happening…would you call that a crime?? In a normal, everyday situation…suspending a child’s full weight by their hair would be considered terribly abusive and cruel…but put it into the context of being the ONLY way to save them from something far more horrible and life-threatening…and the act doesn’t behave like a crime anymore, does it?”

      “Or perhaps you…would suggest just letting the kid fall so that the lion can do whatever it pleases with them?”

      2. Brandy, I believe this is the analogy that you are speaking of:

      “Alan Rosenfeld recalls an analogy made by Richard Ducote, a New Orleans attorney who has represented many women accused of making false sexual abuse allegations. ‘It’s like a mother whose child is in the middle of the freeway. She has three choices: (1) Watch her child be killed; (2) Run into the road, throw the child to safety, and be hit herself; or (3) Stay with her child and be killed together. Which is the best choice?'”

      Unfortunately, juries are wise to those types of analogies. In a more recent case, the mom and her mother ended up with a civil judgement against her and her conspirators of almost $600,000. It was the Underground Attorney Alan Rosenfeld who represented this underground mom. Rosenfeld was ultimately suspended for his use of the so called “necessity defense” for these types of inflammatory analogies.

      In these types of cases, it’s often very difficult to determine who is telling the truth. Protective Parents like you are very quick to accuse any father for sexually abusing his own child yet without any direct evidence. Getting a disclosure out of a child without any direct medical evidence is very difficult to get from young children. You are quick to say that I don’t know, but the fact of the matter is you probably don’t know for sure either. I really hope that in your case, you didn’t engage in therapist or child abuse professional shopping and you had definitive evidence against your former spouse.

      http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/the-parental-kidnapping-case-of-barbara-vigil-what-not-to-do/

      “I think you just like to hear yourself talk.”

      4. I enjoy a debate with a protective parent / underground mom that still believes parental kidnapping is a justified legal alternative. It doesn’t sound like you are the type of mother that would ever be interested or capable of co-parenting your child. You are also in denial of the emotional abuse inflicted on your child from the parental kidnapping. I would suggest you read the document below by Ernie Allen, the President of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

      http://ag.hawaii.gov/cpja/files/2013/02/kid_is_with_a_parent.pdf

      “Thus the motive in a great majority of those cases for parental abduction was not love, but more often anger/or revenge.”

      The Editor

      • Brandy says:

        Editor, this is not a debate…a debate acknowledges both sides of the issue. You refuse to even accept that there IS another side to this issue.

        You don’t know me. I was not “quick to accuse” my ex. It broke my heart that he did what he did. I still loved him, despite not being able to remain married to him. I didn’t want to believe that he could hurt her. You assume entirely too much.

        Again…you sound like someone who simply justifies what sexually abusive parents do…and so in your mind, perhaps there really IS no crime…because perhaps you don’t SEE it as a crime.

        I think I trust the well-trained psychotherapist who was involved with our family on a weekly basis for 4 straight years to determine whether or not I have inflicted emotional abuse on my daughter by hiding her from her predatory sexual abuser, over what you think. And before you spout something stupid insinuating that I simply chose a therapist who would agree with me…let me remind you that our therapist was court-appointed…I did not get to choose.

        I imagine you’ll find some way to twist that into something criminal on my behalf as well, but whatever. Knock yourself out.

      • underwatch says:

        Because I am not convinced you had a reasonable belief that your child was being harmed. You might be in the very small group of underground moms that after months or years of therapist shopping, finally found a group of professionals to believe you. Even in those cases, the evidence is not there. We’ve seen underground moms put microphones in stuffed animals, but never found any evidence but still went underground. If I told you that I received some documents on your case and there is clear evidence that your child was not harmed by your former spouse, would that be a good or bad thing?

  58. Brandy says:

    @ Ally – I’m sorry, no – I don’t know if Faye Yeager still helps protective parents, or where she is. I only came into contact with her once, and that was 20 years ago. I decided not utilize her help at that time, because I had other options which I felt kept my daughter in a more stable environment. I honestly don’t know anything about her. I know people say some pretty harsh things regarding her conduct with money and taking advantage of those she is “helping”…I don’t know if any of that is true, but I will say…something in my gut told me not to go with her advice/services. At that time, it seemed to me (and I honestly may have simply misunderstood), that she was not asking for ANY documented evidence of my child’s abuse before offering to whisk us away…and that frightened me. I felt like…wait…if they’re not checking to MAKE SURE that this is a kid who needs protection…is my daughter safe in this situation? And I don’t mean, like, safe-from-her-abuser *safe*…I mean…the whole thing seemed squirrely to me and I was afraid to put my daughter in that situation. You know…if you rely on strangers to help you save a life…you’re at their mercy and can’t just go call the police if you or your child are violated in some way. I have read stories about Faye Yeager genuinely helping people, too, though…so I really don’t know what the truth is concerning her. It was a brief interaction I had with her, so it may not be enough to give a fair assessment.

  59. underwatch says:

    Brandy,

    Here are the issues that some may have with your allegations.

    “4) I know I wasn’t mistaken about the abuse…how?…because on his VERY first unsupervised visit after our return, he sexually abused my then 4 year old daughter, AGAIN. The courts immediately revoked unsupervised visits, and he was legally never allowed to be alone with her again. So, they acknowledged that he had abused her enough to make a half-assed attempt to protect her themselves…but they still never prosecuted him for what he was doing.”

    Why didn’t Child Protective Services prosecute your former spouse? Wasn’t there enough definitive evidence? Something doesn’t sound quite right.

    “Additionally, she was not his first victim.”

    “He later married a single mom with two tiny girls, about 2 and 3 years old at the time. So, my guess is that, my daughter was also not his last victim either, unfortunately.”

    Do you have evidence that he abused his new wife’s children? Or are you just throwing the allegation out there?

    Did you follow the Jerry Sandusky case? If you truly believed that your former spouse was abusing his new step-children, why wouldn’t you do something about it? Or were afraid of being labeled as a hysterical revengeful former spouse?

    It sounds like you had a sexual abuse exam performed on your child. I am going to assume that you didn’t have a video or testimony of an witness. I imagine you interviewed your child. If that’s the case, then could the medical professionals back then have made a mistake? In a rural community like Ventura County, is it possible they were not properly trained and relied on your statements. We followed several other cases in the ’90s like that.

    The Editor

    • Brandy says:

      Editor said: ~ “Why didn’t Child Protective Services prosecute your former spouse? Wasn’t there enough definitive evidence? Something doesn’t sound quite right.” ~

      No shit, something doesn’t sound right. That’s my point! While CPS investigators, nurses specializing in sexual abuse examinations (at least that’s what their titles imply…), and child therapists are screaming, “This kid has been hurt and is in danger of further abuse”…the judges are simply ignoring what they’re saying and handing the kids over to the abusers anyway. Yeah…sure as hell…*something* doesn’t sound right. And my question is the same as yours…Why didn’t anyone prosecute him when they knew what he was doing?!?!

      The CPS investigator who investigated our situation actually told me that although she knew when and where the abuse had taken place…that it would take a pretty catastrophic form of abuse for her agency to do anything about it. She was instrumental in my decision to go into hiding. She essentially told me, “Yeah, we know he’s doing sexual things to your infant. Yeah, we know she’s at risk of it continuing to happen. No, we’re not going to do anything about it at this point”.

      I don’t think it serves any purpose for me to continue on with this back-and-forth with you. Why? Because I’m quite convinced at this point that you don’t see anything wrong with adults doing sexual things to children. You haven’t *once* answered my questions implying as much. It reminds me SOOO much of the way my ex acted throughout our ordeal…he never *once* simply stopped and said to me, “I did not hurt her. I did not do this”. In fact, he used to get a smirk on his face, like he was trying to stifle a full-on grin.

      One thing I’ve noticed about people who behave in the most dysfunctional ways in regard to their treatment of others…is that they always, always turn every conversation about what could possibly be their own wrongdoing into a full-on bashing of the other person. I guess they think they’re taking the attention back off of themselves? Some are pretty skilled at it. You seem to fall into that category.

      Oh, and you’re highly mistaken….Ventura County is not a “rural” area, lol. It’s a county of nearly a million people, and is considered part of the greater Los Angeles area.

      It’s obvious that you are the type who thinks that you are superior to others, knows *everything*, and could not possibly be incorrect in all of your (kind of stupid?) assumptions. You don’t even acknowledge when somebody points out your mistakes with indesputable facts to back it up. What is THAT about?!!

      I’m done conversing with you.

      I feel sorry for anyone who ever married you, or for any child who ever had to live with you as a parent.

      • underwatch says:

        Brandy,

        Your case still sounds like the other underground moms that believed their child was being abused, but rather than staying in the court system and fighting for your child, you decided to run from it. The fact that the therapist was court appointed doesn’t as relevant as the results of their evaluation. I realize that you are not open to any possibility that you falsely accused your spouse, and that’s something you will have to live with. Someday, your child might ask, so what proof did you have mom? In our opinion, you may have been a victim of the child abuse hysteria that swept our country in the ’80s and ’90s. You’re not the only one as we saw from the McMartin Trial and the Wenatchee, Washington cases.

        I hope you didn’t assert the same allegations against the court ordered evaluators and CPS investigators as you did against us. If so, that would have been really horrible if they didn’t initially give you sole custody because they thought your communication with them was abusive. It also sounds like these professionals might have been double talking or telling you what you wanted to hear, but maybe writing their report in a different way.

        I too believe that both of us need to move on from this discussion. It is important to take responsibility for our actions. If you marry someone, have a child with them, then want that person in prison for the rest of their life, that’s a really tragic series of events. That said, at some point, it’s important to move on and focus on the better things in life.

        I do appreciate the comment you provided about Faye Yager. With all her talk about “satanic ritual abuse”, I have always been surprised that any mother would let her child(ren) go near her. You are one of the few underground moms to disclose information about her.

        Brandy, you are certainly welcome to visit and post comments on our site anytime. Before you get mad at us and never return, I have one last question: What does the term “protective parent” mean?

        – The Editor

  60. Brandy says:

    P.S. Can you READ? I’ve stated more than once that my daughter’s therapist was COURT-APPOINTED…that means, that the court *appointed* her. So, no…I did not “spend months or years therapist-shopping”….LOL!…you’re an idiot.

  61. Brandy says:

    Editor said, “Brandy, you are certainly welcome to visit and post comments on our site anytime. Before you get mad at us and never return, I have one last question: What does the term “protective parent” mean?”

    I don’t identify with the term protective parent. I’m just a mom…who did what I had to do to keep my toddler from being forced to endure rape at the hands of her bio father. I don’t consider myself a “protective parent”….just a parent. I did those things the same way I would grab my kid out of the street before they were run over by a car, or give them the heimlich maneuver if they were choking to death on their food…ya know? Most parents are hard-wired to save their childrens’ lives when they are in peril. I’m no different.

    I’m not angry. I’m disappointed and frustrated that there are people who do not stop to truly acknowledge that some kids really need protection. A life in hiding SUCKS on so many levels, even in a circumstance where you are able to maintain a degree of normalcy. You have to leave behind jobs, homes, and worst of all, the people you love. A person would truly have to be out of their mind to resort to a life in hiding solely to be vindictive and hurtful. I do absolutely believe that there ARE parents who DO take their kids into hiding solely to hurt or deny the other parent, even when the parent was not a danger to the child…but I wasn’t one of them.

    I have a loving, God-fearing heart. I love humanity, I am forgiving, I am compassionate, I am intelligent, I am fair. I am certainly flawed, as we all are. But I would have never done something like go into hiding simply to lash out at my ex. He made a lousy husband, but I don’t believe that equals the same as being a lousy dad. The fact that he is a pedophile who behaves sexually with children is what made him a lousy dad.

    I think what is most frustrating to me…is that people like you and I cannot work together to effect some kind of positive change for children. Clearly, you are passionate about the issue…but you refuse to see both sides of the issue…and in so doing, you leave a lot of defenseless children out in the cold, figuratively speaking.

    I hope and pray that ALL children in hiding….those who really need the protection, and those who were never harmed and were taken solely out of cruelty…will end up where each one of them needs to be – whether that’s back home with their left-behind parent, or safe in hiding away from the hands of a parent who would continue to inflict harm and damage on them.

    It baffles me that you refuse to see that there are two sides to the issue. And P.S. I was a *child* when the McMartin thing happened…I never even knew about it until years later when the movie aired on Lifetime, lol (it was at least a few years old when I saw it). By then, I was long out of hiding with my daughter.

    I’m out.

    • dee says:

      Has anyone stopped to think that the editor was abused and is angry from that? Maybe he was abused by his mother and kidnapped and therefore likes the fathers position and all kidnappings are bad? Just saying… he really is out there with some of his replies.

      You did the best for your child, and you protected your child; the system clearly failed you and I am sorry your child and you suffered from it. Hope you carry on and have a great life.

      • underwatch says:

        Hi Dee,

        Our position is that there is no excuse for a parental abduction. A parent can’t play judge, jury and executioner. Maybe in the ’60s or early ’70s, but after the Mondale Act of 1974 that started Child Protective Services “CPS”, that is one of the legal alternatives a protective parent has. There is also therapy. The worst thing any protective parent can do is to to seek the assistance from unqualified and untrained child protection advocates or domestic violence workers. The Mondale Act was 1974, that almost 40 years ago that CPS has had time evolve.

        This blog has everything to do with getting those still living in the ’60s and ’70s to realize that parental kidnapping is one of the most heinous crimes against a child.

        The Editor

  62. H says:

    Reading through the stream of comments here, one thing is glaringly obvious – ‘underground watch’ has their head totally underground, not unlike an ostrich with its head buried in the sand.

    I find it so shockingly ignorant to refuse to acknowledge that abuse happens, frequently “officials” don’t believe it ever occurred, and they often give custody to the abusive parent.

    I also find it shockingly ignorant that ‘underground watch’ keeps referring to the protective parents as ‘narcissistic’, when if fact, it is most likely the abuser that is narcissistic. First, the clinical label of being narcissistic is most often tagged to men, not women. The characteristics of it are quite different from ‘borderline personality disorder’, which is what is associated with women more than men.

    Perhaps ‘underground watch’ is uneducated in the characteristics of a narcissist – most have an outward, public character, and an very private character, which is exactly why many don’t believe the abuse occurs – it is impossible for them to imagine that particular person could do that particular thing. I have no doubt ‘underground watch’ would throw themselves at the likes of Scott Peterson, believing him to be the wonderful, loving man he shows to the world, narcissist that he is.

    It is understandable ‘underground watch’ that you live with your head in the sand. My own mother, when I finally left my spouse of 16+ years because the abuse was now being directed at the children, even made the comment “but he’s such a wonderful man, whatever could be wrong?” He was so dazzlingly presentable to the outside world and could charm his way through anything. So while most couldn’t see through the narcissistic façade, and thought me crazy, and a liar, I realized I couldn’t turn to any of them for help, I held my head high, carried on, and got myself and my children out of that situation, and let them remain with their heads ignorantly buried in the sand. You on the other hand, are dangerous to so many people, spewing your craziness of disbelief on the internet for the whole world to read, for the whole world to continue to turn a blind eye to the abuse that true narcissists dish out.

    Do you realize in the some states there are no laws to stop a judge from awarding custody of a child to a biological parent convicted of felony sexual abuse to that very same child? My own state is one, the only stipulation is that both parties are in therapy, the judge may award sole custody of a child to the parent convicted of sexual abusing that very same child. As the parent trying to protect that child, it would have to be over my dead body before it ever occurred. Period.

    • underwatch says:

      Hi H,

      Protective Parent = Narcissistic Personality Disorder = Family Court Evaluation Recommends Joint Custody = Does Not Believe That Rules That Apply To The Rest Of Society Apply To Them = Parental Alienation = Commits Felony U.S. Passport Fraud = Parental Kidnapping = Emotionally Abuses Child(ren) = After Felony Parental Kidnapping Loses Custody = Prison / Jail = Supervised Visitation of Child(ren)

      You like to call everyone idiots. The above is the likely outcome for protective parents that go underground. We have researched a very large number of these cases over the past twenty years and most of the recent cases generally follow this path.

      There are so many legal remedies a parent has to protect their child before committing a felony by kidnapping their child(ren). With the consequences so severe, why would any parent that sincerely loved their child(ren) commit this crime?

      You would have to be an idiot!

      The Editor

  63. Samantha says:

    I admire all of these women and men. Wish there was somone like them in SC to help me and my children.

  64. kim derreberry says:

    Please help

  65. dee says:

    Dee replying to the editor… You are correct that parental kidnapping is the worse form of child abuse. I agree. My children are kidnapped and I may only be able to kidnap them back to prevent further harm from the father also violating the DVRO. He is a police officer and they will not arrest him because of that. Police are NOT held to the same standards and also manipulate the law to cause harm as he had me arrested when I showed the ORDERS from the COURT CERTIFIED saying he parentally kidnapped the children and violated the DVRO and UCAPA states to return to Mother IMMEDIATELY.

    THIS should paint a pretty clear picture that the courts and law enforcment are NOT working. I have the court orders for custody. I have DVRO protecting the children. I have COURT ORDERS stating he violated the DVRO, parental kidnapping, child endangerment which are felonies.

    The COLORADO law enforcment and judges will not give CA orders FULL FAITH AND CREDIT to the orders per our US Constitution. As well as the DVRO is good in all 50 states pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 2265 and 2266 the VAWA VIolence Against Women Act ALSO clearly written on each DVRO good in all 50 states and MUST be given full faith and credit. The crime Victims Act of 2004 also states a violent crime victim is to be reasonably protected 18 U.S.C. 3371(a)(1). ALL IS NOT BEING ENFORCED as husband is a corrupt cop and his department is conspiring and the judge is his friend.

    SO….I am just saying that things are not always so clear cut as you like to say they are. CO parenting was lost when he abandoned us 2 years ago, domestic violence, and no support for 2 years and he makes 91K a year. I am disabled from his violence. I was to have surgery but he cancelled insurance AGAINST COURT ORDERS and I am staying disabled. All I have done was love and support my husband, was the primary bread winner before being disabled AND PRIMARY caregiver switching to a job in the house with an office to be with my children 24/7. He was from Australia and supported him as required for 10 years.

    There is NOTHING I could do better even trying to get him help for his physical and mental issues after he abandoned us as I believe that is what family does. Just to have him kidnap the children 2 years later, with an active DVRO, orders to return the children,which the laws are VERY clear they should be rescued and protected from harm. If police wont pick up the children neither with the state orginizations which is the horn you are tooting that ALSO does not always work.

    So when someone has tried everything to protect their children, by law, as required, with ALL good intentions; and that does not work as clearly this is a fine example of how it is not working; do you just let your child be killed?

    It is not always cut and dry. People need to protect innocent children, ESPECIALLY when the system fails to do so. If you think the system is perfect and never fails, you are clearly not living in the real world. Just saying…..

  66. Jam says:

    We;;, she certainly refused to help me or my children. Apparently we did not have enough $$ for her to make something off of us? Or so I am later told that was her real agenda. So instead my 2 little girls got to spend a good 10+ years living with a father who repeatedly raped, beat and emotionally destroyed them. We had all the evidence needed for her to see including the fact that we were sent to Faye via another victim who had 1st hand knowledge of this judges corrupt behavior…… including a report of him being under investigation for sexual misconduct while on the bench!! Yes…. pedophiles rule on the bench! After 20+ years later my girls are finally safe and away from the monster for good. However the abuse carries on in ALL of our lives as we try to pick up the pieces… I am still the focus of the fathers vindictive sociopath nature..as well the years of this mans judicial wranglings which have devastated me financially and that of my health. There is no recourse for the victims in these cases leaving their perpetrators forever able to roam free to abuse, abuse, abuse…..what a sick society we live in. It is always about greed and control. I’d like to see Jeraldo pick up some of these cases and try them in front of a world media forever shaming them and making known who each and everyone one of them are!

  67. Val Virden says:

    My ex husband is a convicted felon for domestic aggravated assault! He left me with not one dime and 2 kids. He stayed one year in prison and moved to La. With his dad who has tons of money. Remarried and paid a counselor to lye on his behalf. They are now 17 and 13 he mentally abuses them. He puts them down, yells at them. Threatens them. We’ve been in and out of court. I finally was exhausted mentally and financially. I need help my children are misarable and afraid . I beg for justice. I’ve had horrible attorneys who didn’t give a damn, and did not do their jobs !!! Please help me and my children. He’s pushing them to rebel against him and belittles me to them. I’m begging someone to contact me! My number is 662-820-0506. Help, Val

  68. dee says:

    Hi Dee here, another mother who’s children are kidnapped at the moment by abusive husband with DVRO ACTIVE on him and I have custody. My children are being harmed and the courts can’t do much as I have orders he violated the DVRO and parentally kidnapped the children, but that doesn’t get them back.
    I HAVE LEARNED that each state is different and am well versed on interstate jurisdiction issues. SO my question to you is what state to do live in? DO you have a custody order, and if so what state? What is the custody arrrangement now and when was it made and what state? Does anyone still live in the state that the custody order is from? Let me know this info so I can better help you as it really should be handled legally, and the laws in your state or the state of custody I need to research along with the custody arrangement.

  69. Kate says:

    I’m in desperate need of help… The system is failing my daughter… Please someone help keep her safe from her monstrous father. I’m desperate

  70. Maralee McLean worked closely and planned with Joan Pennington National Rally at the Capitol. Media coverage Denver Post and 7 News, CNN, affiliated with Alliiance Rights for Children, National Center for Protective Parents, Ted Gunderson, Allan Rosenfeld , Seth Goldstein, Garnett Harrison, Richard Ducote.. Paula Oldham, Ami Neustein…

  71. Just a Mom says:

    The Mondale act of child abuse did not save me in 1984 from a man who sexually abused me at the age of 14. I went to CPS court hearings and the judge told me to ‘do what your parents tell you to do – both of them’. Problem is one of them wanted to have sex with me! I left at 15, and he went on to abuse 2 more of my sisters. I found out about the third one of us and filed a criminal report against him. They finally did something. Eight years after my initial report.

    Now I have spent ten years protecting myself and my child from an abuser. I have photographic proof of his abuse and neglect. He HAS been arrested for his abuse/assaults of others, many times (more than twice, less than ten times) in a year. Yet he still has ‘rights’ to our child?

    Sorry ‘Editor’ you are grossly mistaken. He has been called out by many, but certain specific judges think his father rights trump our child’s right to safety. If I wasn’t so scared to be caught I would run too. But for now I battle in court and protect as best as I can. Eventually our child will be old enough to tell him to go pound sand. And just maybe make it through to find a decent spouse and not abuse or be abused. I also know running is not the answer. Our child will never be safe if I run, the child will be placed in his abusive care full time. Right now he alternates between 0-20%. Guess I will have to learn to live with 80% protection. Such a shame, especially when we first separated he offered this child for sale. Terms of said sale? I relinquish all child support/alimony and give him our house and walk away with our child and our clothes. But he offered to sell me our child. Should have taken that deal. I didn’t get alimony, he stopped paying support years ago and he got our house and hasn’t paid one dime to me for the house. He got what he offered, but I didn’t get my end of his deal.

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